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PAC Chairman Nyati Pokela interview (Pan Africanist Congress of South Africa)
Date: 11/13/1982Call Number: AFR 009AFormat: Cass AProgram: Songs of FreedomCollection: South Africa
Judy Jensen of the Material Aid Campaign for ZANU interviews the Chairman of South Africa’s PAC (Pan Africanist Congress). Nyati Pokela speaks about the history and purpose of the PAC and explains what Bantustans are and why they were created. He explains why the PAC and the ANC (African National Congress) deem it necessary to engage in armed struggle against the Apartheid government, and how the PAC’s leaders lead by example by taking risks for the cause. Pokelu details the role of women in the struggle and the conditions of the black population of South Africa, and explains the unequal development of different African countries toward independence. He talks about the similarities between the struggles in South Africa and the US, and calls for solidarity with the PAC and Africa’s cause.
Interview of Mike Tissong, a white newspaper reporter for a South African white newspaper, about his views on news censorship and the political and social situation in South Africa
Mike Tissong, a white newspaper reporter for a South African Anglo newspaper, is interviewed about his views on news censorship. He speaks about the types of views presented in the news depending on the type of newspaper (liberal, conservative, white, or black),and about the government censorship of black liberation prevalent in South Africa. Tissong also speaks on the dangers of being a white reporter in black townships because that is where the struggle is being waged. He mentions the horrible practice of prison detention of children, and laments the lack of those calling for sanctions (besides prominent people like Desmond Tutu). He comments on the current situation of oppressed people supporting the struggle against Apartheid through armed struggle. He mentions Robert Mugabe’s liberation strategy of a “bullet for a bullet” by killing whites. Tissong speaks about black on black violence in South Africa, pointing out two levels: one of the right wing (IFP - Inkatha Freedom Party), the other from cultural movements in Natal. On political and social movements and organizations, he talks about the Black Consciousness Movement and its call for a stop to violence, and the UDF’s (United Democratic Front) call for violence in the struggle. Lastly, he speaks on the west’s (United States) view of Southern Africa, as they treat it like a game. The west only supports groups like AZAPO (Azanian People’s Organization), but ignores ZANU (Zimbabwe African National Union), and only recognizes the ANC (African National Congress), not other South African liberation organizations.
Conference on liberation and reconstruction struggles in Southern Africa
Continuation of AFR 034
See enclosed note in AFR 035
Conference on liberation and reconstruction struggles in Africa, particularly in Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Namibia. A representative of SWAPO (South West African People’s Organization) speaks about the international community being in solidarity with Southern African countries, and asks for support for SWAPO’s continued struggle for liberation in Namibia. A member of the Zimbabwe admission to the United Nations speaks about the bonds formed between liberation fighters in Africa and internationally. He speaks about the leaders of ZANU (Zimbabwe African National Union), the ANC (African National Congress), and the PAC (Pan African Congress). He speaks on the history of the struggles for independence and human rights in Southern Africa, and the contued struggle for liberation. Sylvia Baraldini of the May 19th Communist Organization speaks on the National Campaign in solidarity with the ZANU Women’s League. She talks about the lessons of the struggle for liberation in Zimbabwe and looks at the process of reconstruction. A permanent representative of the PAC of Azania to the United Nations speaks about South Africa. He comments on South African president P.W. Botha’s refusal to erode Apartheid through economic means. He talks about a socialist solution incorporating equal distribution of wealth and power, and calls people to work together to fight oppression.
Saths Cooper on South African issues and Steve Biko.
Saths Cooper, president of South Africa’s Professional Board for Psychology, speaks about Steve Biko, leader of the Black Consciousness movement. He speaks about Apartheid and colonization’s influences on South Africans. He claims that the west usually ignores the exploitation and wrongs of colonization on South Africa, and instead concentrates only on anti-Apartheid movements. The struggle is both at the national and social levels. The struggle means repossession of land and social transformation. Whites own most of the land in South Africa, but constitute only 15% of the population. Cooper also talks about how the youth have taken the lead in the revolution because they have vested interest in their futures, so they fight against resignation to the law. He says, “The youth have become the collective consciousness of a people denied on a political, social, and economic level.” He speaks about racial and economic hierarchies in South Africa, and about Steve Biko’s influence and student organization influence. He lastly speaks about how AZAPO (Azanian People’s Organization) follows Black Consciousness ideologies, while other organizations in South Africa follow AZAPO’s ideology, and he claims that Biko had to be killed when he did (1977) because people were unified under UDF (United Democratic Front - a South African umbrella organization of banned black organizations) and they realized they had a common enemy, so they needed to strike together. Therefore, the government killed Biko because of his strong influence and threat to the psychological impact of Apartheid. Cooper’s talk is followed by a question and answer session, and continues to Side B.
Interview of AZAPO Representative about the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa.
Recorded off mic, poor recording
Interview of a representative of AZAPO (Azanian People’s Organization) about AZAPO in South Africa. He speaks about how the racist Apartheid regime attempts to set up “independence” within the urban townships, or “homelands”, but how the homelands were rejected by the people of South Africa. He speaks about the oppression of blacks and how they have joined forces with coloreds and Indians to fight Apartheid, and describes the legal restrictions placed on black Africans.
Imperialist oppression in Southern African countries
Judy Jensen of the Material Aid Campaign for ZANU makes a speech about Southern Africa. She speaks about ZANU’s defeat of white settler colonialism in Zimbabwe and also women’s contributions to the struggle. She discusses the different fronts in the war for the liberation of Southern Africa, and the struggle against the US’s attack on their independence. She talks about struggles in Namibia, South Africa’s control over Southern African countries, and calls for solidarity with Southern African countries. Lastly, she draws comparisons and similarities between the oppression of blacks in America and Africa. Next, Serge Mukendi, US Representative of the Workers and Peasants Movement of the Congo (MOP), speaks about weaknesses in natural and human resources in Africa because they are not in the hands of the Africans. He speaks about the struggles in Congo and tells the audience that it is our duty to strengthen the fight for liberation in Congo through support and solidarity.
On Side B, Eve Rosahn, political activist, Students Against Government Misconduct, speaks about political activists for black liberation who have been tortured and beaten for their actions. Next, a member of the Anti-Springbok 5 chants “Up With Azania, Down With South Africa!”, and speaks about her experiences as an ASB-5, and tells the audience about the Springbok 5 and what they represent. The Springboks are an elite white supremacist South African rugby team traveling the US, representing the spread of white imperialism. Lastly, PAC (Pan African Congress) representative Jackie Mazibuko, speaks about white alliances between Ian Smith of Zimbabwe, the South African government, and the US in their oppression of black Africans. She also speaks about the land issues in Africa, and that all land originally, and still should, belong to black Africans, and that people must have the ideology of revolution to struggle against oppression.
Elizabeth Sibeko of the Pan African Congress
Elizabeth Sibeko of the PAC (Pan African Congress) in South Africa speaks about the PAC delegation to a women’s conference in Nairobi, Kenya. She speaks about the Portuguese, French, and American involvement in South African affairs and oppression, and speaks about how the solidarity that has been shown the people of South Africa is helping to liberate the African people. On Side B, she continues to speak about children’s and student’s roles in the struggle against Apartheid and oppression. She says that they have the advantage of large population, organization, and direction.
Pan African Congress on conditions in South Africa
PAC (Pan African Congress) deputy president Johnson Mlambo speaks about the PAC’s role in the struggle for liberation in South Africa. He talks about black African’s struggle for land, and fighting against imprisonment of activists. He also speaks about the conditions of South African jails. N. Pokela, chairman of the PAC, speaks about the solidarity and determination needed among all Africans and South Africans to fight against Apartheid.
Side B is a question and answer period.
Pan African Congress Chairman Pokela on the PAC and conditions in South Africa.
Judy Jensen of the Material Aid Campaign for ZANU (Zimbabwe African National Union) interviews PAC (Pan African Congress) chairman Pokela about the PAC campaigns in South African townships and cities. He speaks about how the PAC insists on conducting an armed struggle and guerilla warfare, and also that Gatsha Buthelezi is an independent and not the voice of PAC, although he is a member. Pokela speaks about the Soweto Uprisings. He talks about how one must go back into the history of Soweto to understand the significance of the uprisings, and how Africans can achieve their own independence, and their own rights. He talks about how the Soweto Uprising campaign is similar to PAC campaign, and then speaks about workers’ rights and job conditions.
Side B is a continuation of Side A
PAC Chairman Pokela speaks about unification between the PAC and Black Consciousness Movements, thereby uniting the people internally. He speaks about the need for all Africans to be united, and speaks about how other African countries such as Algeria, Angola, and Mozambique have been good examples for black South Africans. He speaks about the possible involvement of women in the PAC. Lastly, he says that Nationalism, Pan Africanism, and Socialism are central to the PAC.
AZAPO and conditions in Southern Africa
Program on AZAPO and the state of Southern Africa. AZAPO chairman Pokela, SWAPO representative, and AZAPO representative Nick Tucker speak.
AZAPO (Azanian People’s Organization) chairman Pokela speaks about the lack of knowledge people in the United States and Europe have about the struggles in Azania. He also speaks about how the native African people lost their land and their rights to the white imperialists. He says that in order for Africans to fight back, they must remove their inferiority complexes (as Robert Sobukwe, former president of the PAC (Pan African Congress), suggests). He speaks about the injustices of the Pass Laws in South Africa, and encourages blacks to go to the prisons and challenge the police to arrest them.
Next, a woman representative of SWAPO (South West African People’s Organization - dedicated to opposing injustice in Southern Africa) speaks about the problems of violence in South Africa, and also about the bloody war going on in Namibia. She speaks about the policy of “Destabilization” that was designed by the white Nationalists, and about the Western media’s perception, pressure, and influence on events in South Africa.
Lastly, Nick Tucker of AZAPO speaks about AZAPO and the current events and conditions in Southern Africa, mourning the large number of murders in the area.
He quotes Amilcar Cabral, “We should tell no lies and claim no easy victory”.
Tucker speaks about two theories that determine revolutions: 1) To have a revolution, one must have a revolutionary theory and convey it to the masses. 2) Continued economic depression will heighten revolutionary anarchy and the masses will want to organize and revolt. He says that AZAPO is trying to do the former strategy. Lastly, Tucker speaks about the formation of black worker’s unions - that they form under Black Consciousness because black men can truly understand the hardships and oppression of other blacks, and can then translate that idea to whites.
