[News] Exclusive: Senior Hamas Leader Mousa Abu Marzouk on Trump’s Gaza Plan and the Future of Hamas
Anti-Imperialist News
news at freedomarchives.org
Wed Oct 8 18:21:21 EDT 2025
Hamas says it wants to make a deal and sees Trump as the key, but will
not “raise the white flag.”
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Exclusive: Senior Hamas Leader Mousa Abu Marzouk on Trump’s Gaza Plan
and the Future of Hamas
<https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2510348&post_id=175546952&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=lvppb&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjozNjc1MTU4MywicG9zdF9pZCI6MTc1NTQ2OTUyLCJpYXQiOjE3NTk4NjQ4NTYsImV4cCI6MTc2MjQ1Njg1NiwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI1MTAzNDgiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.tQbE8jmE37H4nSoLnzYhPsgqK_wUGfbOfFt-kYrlGVk>
Hamas says it wants to make a deal and sees Trump as the key, but
will not “raise the white flag.”
Jeremy Scahill <https://substack.com/@jeremyscahill>
Oct 7, 2025
<https://substack.com/@jeremyscahill>
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READ IN APP
<https://open.substack.com/pub/dropsitenews/p/senior-hamas-leader-mousa-abu-marzouk-gaza-ceasefire-israel?utm_source=email&redirect=app-store&utm_campaign=email-read-in-app>
<https://substack.com/redirect/fb4f6fc7-35c5-4b12-9cd1-8fd43ab06725?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM>Senior
Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzouk in an interview with Drop Site’s Jeremy
Scahill on October 6, 2025.
“There has never been in history an open war, a genocide broadcast on
television like this war, a war in which starvation is used as a weapon,
the killing of children is used as a weapon, and the blocking of
medicine is used as a weapon. Is it possible that Trump is devoid of
humanity to this extent? Is that possible?”
Amidst high-stakes talks underway in Egypt that will determine the
future of the Gaza war, Mousa Abu Marzouk, an original member of Hamas
who remains a senior official within the movement, is calling on
President Donald Trump to block Israeli attempts to sabotage an
agreement and to use his influence to bring an end to the two year genocide.
In an exclusive interview with Drop Site on Monday, Abu Marzouk said,
“Stopping the war means a complete [Israeli] withdrawal from the Gaza
Strip. I want Trump to fulfill his pledge and promise.” Addressing
Trump, Abu Marzouk said, “Thank you for your efforts, and for your
promise to stop the war and release the prisoners. We are committed to
it. Just stop the war.”
Under Trump’s 20-point plan
<https://substack.com/redirect/3a62799e-e266-489b-8a50-03bf0ba4a3cc?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM>released
last week during a joint appearance at the White House with Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the initial phase of a ceasefire deal
would require Hamas to release all Israeli captives remaining in Gaza
within a 72-hour period. There are believed to be 48 in total—20 of them
living and 28 deceased. In return, Israel would then free nearly 2,000
Palestinians—250 serving life sentences and 1,700 people, including all
women and children, snatched from Gaza after the October 7 attacks.
Israel is insisting that it will not link its total withdrawal from Gaza
to the exchange of captives and Netanyahu has said Israeli forces will
remain entrenched in Gaza indefinitely. Hamas, recognizing that the
Israeli captives represent its primary—if not exclusive—leverage in
making any deal have said that the exchange must be linked to a clear
roadmap to total Israeli withdrawal, an end to the genocide and the
delivery of massive amounts of food and other life essentials.
/Watch the full interview:/
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In a wide-ranging interview with Drop Site, which is printed below
in-full, Abu Marzouk discussed the core issues at the center of the
indirect negotiations in Sharm El-Sheikh, Hamas’s view of Trump, and how
he sees the future of Hamas. Abu Marzouk, who joined Hamas upon its
founding in 1987, was the first head of the movement’s political bureau
and has served in various senior posts in the ensuing decades. He said
that Hamas recognizes the inherent risks that Israel would try to
retrieve all captives held by Hamas in Gaza and then resume the genocide.
“We know that during the period of dialogues, discussions, and
understandings, especially at this time, the Israelis will place many
obstacles in front of it,” Abu Marzouk said. But he added that the blunt
reality is that only Trump has the power to bring an immediate halt to
Israel’s war. “This is a risk, but we trusted President Trump to be the
guarantor of all the commitments made,” said Abu Marzouk. “Had there
been no commitment from the American president, we would never have
agreed to take the risk, because we do not trust Netanyahu or his
extremist right‑wing team in the current Israeli government.”
Last Friday, after days of consultations with a range of Palestinian
factions and leaders, as well as armed resistance commanders and the
political leadership inside Gaza, Hamas delivered its official response
to Trump’s proposal. The carefully-crafted text threaded a needle
<https://substack.com/redirect/c184bf6b-3de3-41cc-9dc0-7f3f7689c328?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM>by
affirming Hamas’s commitment to reaching a deal that would see all
Israeli captives released and a clear commitment that Hamas would
relinquish governing authority in the Gaza Strip. But the statement was
not a wholesale embrace of Trump’s plan. Instead, Hamas indicated that
it was authorized to negotiate an end to the war but did not have the
mandate to unilaterally reach an agreement on issues that impact the
future of Palestinian self-determination, governance and statehood.
“When we met the mediators and they presented the proposal, I told them
right away that a large part of President Trump’s proposal is something
Hamas is not authorized to agree to. We are not mandated to decide the
Palestinian people’s future,” Abu Marzouk told Drop Site. “This strategy
was developed to enable us to unite the Palestinian homeland so it can
decide Gaza’s future,” he added. “All of this must be discussed because
it belongs to all Palestinians, not just to Hamas.”
Trump responded enthusiastically to Hamas’s statement, writing in a post
on Truth Social, “Based on the Statement just issued by Hamas, I believe
they are ready for a lasting PEACE. Israel must immediately stop the
bombing of Gaza, so that we can get the Hostages out safely and quickly!”
But as Trump administration officials conferred with Netanyahu’s team,
it became apparent that the strategy heading into the talks in Egypt was
to issue a set of directives to the Palestinian side rather than
engaging in substantive negotiations on the central issues Hamas made
clear would need to be addressed in any deal. These include a permanent
ceasefire, a complete Israeli withdrawal guaranteed by Trump and Arab
and Islamic countries, and unrestricted aid to Gaza. Hamas has called
disarmament of the Palestinian resistance a “red line.”
Netanyahu has maintained that his goal is the total demilitarization of
the Gaza Strip and to use the Trump framework to achieve what Israel has
failed to do in two months of genocidal war, a surrender of the
Palestinian liberation struggle.
“Frankly, statements of this kind are often rhetoric that does not
reflect reality—rather, the purpose of them is to accept defeat in the
battle. If you fought for two years against a resistance movement and
still could not decisively end it, is it possible that you will get what
you want at the negotiating table on this issue?” said Abu Marzouk. “If
you have a pledge from a party that it will not use weapons, or that it
is under a truce or a ceasefire, that should, without doubt, be more
important than searching how many rifles Hamas has.”
The Israeli demand that Gaza be demilitarized and the resistance
disarmed, Abu Marzouk said, is aimed at justifying the continued war of
annihilation against Palestinians in Gaza. With the exception of its
rockets, which have largely been depleted or destroyed over the past two
years, the Palestinian resistance in Gaza overwhelmingly relies on
homemade weapons and ammunition as well as repurposed Israeli ordnance
used in Gaza.
“President Trump said 25,000 members of Qassam were killed,” he said,
adding that this estimate is equivalent to public estimates of the total
size of the Qassam Brigades, Hamas’s armed wing. “Israel also recently
announced that most of Hamas’s military capabilities were destroyed—they
said 90% of Hamas’s capabilities were wiped out. So if they destroyed
90% of Hamas’s military capabilities and killed most of Qassam’s
fighters, as President Trump says, whose weapons are you going to disarm
and where are the weapons you claim you’ll remove when you already
destroyed them?”
Leading the U.S. delegation to the talks in Egypt are Trump’s son-in-law
Jared Kushner and Special Envoy Steve Witkoff. Ron Dermer, Netanyahu’s
top advisor and minister of strategic affairs, will oversee Israel’s
team. Hamas’s negotiators are led by Khalil Al-Hayya, who survived an
Israeli assassination attempt in Doha, Qatar on September 9. Al-Hayya’s
son was killed in the Israeli bombing and his wife, daughter-in-law and
grandchildren were injured.
“We have come today to the city of Sharm El-Sheikh to conduct
responsible and serious negotiations,” said Al-Hayya in a brief
interview with Egyptian television on Tuesday. “We carry with us the
concerns, pains, and sorrows of our people, and the sacrifices made:
martyrs, destroyed homes, and devastation through a brutal war that
lasted two years, waged by the Israeli occupation against our people.
All of these pains we carry with us, and we also carry the goals and
aspirations of our people for stability, freedom, the establishment of a
state, and self-determination.”
Al-Hayya noted that since Hamas submitted its response to Trump’s plan
on Friday, and Trump called for an end to the bombing, Israel had
continued its deadly military assault on Gaza. He cited Israel’s long
history of violating agreements, including the January 2025 ceasefire
deal endorsed by Trump and former President Joe Biden.
“Therefore, we demand real guarantees from the international community,
from President Trump and the United States, and from the sponsoring
countries,” Al-Hayya said. “We are fully ready and positive to reach an
end to the war, withdrawal, and a prisoner exchange—so that this war
ends forever, and our Palestinian people may live in stability and
peace, in accordance with their legitimate aspirations, like all other
peoples of the region in which we live.”
Over the past two days, Trump has expressed confidence a deal will be
reached within days, but sources close to the Palestinian negotiators
have told Drop Site that a range of technical details need to be worked
out. They also emphasized that Hamas is not going to simply agree to the
dictates of Israel and will firmly assert its bottom line.
Qatar and Egypt have served as the primary regional mediators throughout
the Gaza genocide and, in recent weeks, Turkey has played a significant
role, particularly in the discussions with Hamas leading up to the
movement’s response to Trump’s plan. “Negotiations are currently focused
primarily on identifying the obstacles hindering the implementation of
Trump’s plan and examining the practical details of its execution,”
Qatar’s foreign ministry said in a statement on Tuesday. “The current
moment is not suitable for discussing or speculating about the obstacles
to implementing the plan.”
While Abu Marzouk said that Hamas is approaching the negotiations in
Egypt in a spirit of flexibility and wants to achieve an agreement that
ends a genocidal war during which Israel has killed well over 60,000
Palestinians, he cautioned that there are logistical challenges to a
release of all Israeli captives.
“When President Trump said he wanted the prisoners released all at
once—yes, it is possible the prisoners will be released over a defined
period of time, because doing it all at once would be difficult,” Abu
Marzouk said. He added that the bodies of many deceased Israeli captives
are under rubble or in tunnels bombed by Israeli forces. “These are in
areas where Israeli forces are currently present. Therefore, they must
withdraw, and we will need time to search for them,” he added. “The
Israeli army has altered the landmarks of the Gaza Strip through
destruction, digging, searching for tunnels, and the destruction of all
existing cemeteries. I am one of those people whose parents were buried
in a cemetery that now lies under the road that was paved—the
Philadelphia line. The entire cemetery is beneath that line.”
Hamas wants the Israeli forces to first withdraw from areas inside Gaza
to facilitate recovery of bodies. “They must withdraw from populated
areas. There cannot be an exchange [if the forces remain], and the
process will not take place. This would mean that Israel does not want
Trump’s plan to be implemented.”
Throughout the negotiations of the past two years, Hamas has fought to
secure the freedom of as many Palestinians held by Israel in return for
releasing Israelis held in Gaza. While the Trump plan framework provides
for nearly 2,000 Palestinians to be freed, Netanyahu has refused to
include the most high-profile Palestinian prisoners in any exchanges.
On Sunday, he reportedly promised Israel’s fanatical, right-wing
interior minister Itamar Ben-Gvir that he would not release Marwan
Barghouti and other revered Palestinian leaders who are serving life
sentences in Israel. Barghouti is the single most popular Palestinian
leader and public polls indicate he would be the top choice to serve as
head of state of an independent Palestine. Ben-Gvir recently stormed
Barghouti’s cell and verbally assaulted him. He has also been repeatedly
subjected to beatings and other abuse in Israeli custody. Hamas is also
demanding the release of Ahmad Sa’adat, Secretary-General of the Popular
Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and Abdullah Barghouti, a senior
commander of the Qassam Brigades, who was sentenced in 2003 to 67 life
terms, the longest sentence ever imposed on a Palestinian by Israel.
“These individuals will be at the top of the priorities in the current
talks. This is because they are a necessity for Palestinian unity and
solidarity, and for their history and symbolism in the struggle. They
must be among the prisoners to be released,” said Abu Marzouk. “The
prisoners hold immense value for the Palestinian people. Therefore, it
is impossible for [Marwan] Barghouti to spend his entire life in prison,
having fought for his people, while people do nothing to save his life.”
Abu Marzouk has spent decades building Hamas as a resistance and
political movement. In 1951, he was born a refugee in Rafah, in the Gaza
Strip, after his family was forcibly displaced from their land in 1948.
An engineer by trade with a Master’s Degree from Colorado State
University, he received his PhD from Louisiana Tech in 1991, the same
year he was elected chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau. In July
1995, he was detained at New York’s JFK airport after his name came up
on a “terror watchlist.” He spent 22 months in prison before being
deported to Jordan in 1997.
In 2002, although he had left the U.S., Abu Marzouk was indicted by a
federal grand jury in the U.S. on charges he and two other men conspired
to illegally finance a terrorist organization. In 2004, he was hit with
another indictment, in absentia, on charges he was organizing the
financing of “terrorist activities in Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza
Strip.”
<https://substack.com/redirect/ed96e7f6-4e9c-4160-9dfc-ce6b5bb43bdf?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM>
Mousa Abu Marzouk sitting in a prison interview room on April 11, 1997
at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York where he was being
held by the US Immigration and Naturalization Service as a suspected
terrorist. (Photo credit: JON LEVY/AFP via Getty Images.)
During the interview with Drop Site, Abu Marzouk addressed the future of
Hamas, saying that while Hamas will commit to stepping down from power
in Gaza, Israeli claims that it will be wiped off the map are fantasy.
“Hamas is no longer a small organization that any great or small state
can remove from Palestine,” he said. “Hamas is no longer [simply] an
organization. Hamas is now hope. Hamas is an idea. So don’t be surprised
that most Arab and Muslim masses chant for Hamas…. Hamas has become an
idea present in the entire Islamic world, not only present in the Gaza
Strip or the West Bank or occupied Palestine or abroad—it exists across
the whole Arab‑Islamic world.”
He said that the U.S., Europe, and other nations should recognize Hamas
as part of the fabric of Palestinian national identity and seek dialogue
and diplomacy in a process that will ensure an independent state and
enshrine the rights of Palestinians to self determination.
“The best way to deal with Hamas is to understand it and to deal with it
responsibly,” he said. “Hamas still stands, does not raise the white
flag, and will not raise the white flag.”
/Drop Site News Middle East Research Fellow Jawa Ahmad contributed to
this report./
/Hana Elias edited the video of the interview./
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interview With Senior Hamas Leader Mousa Abu Marzouk
WATCH THE INTERVIEW
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/Full transcript/
*Jeremy Scahill:*We’re joined now by Dr. Mousa Abu Marzouk, who is a
senior leader of the Hamas movement, has been a member of the movement
from its very beginning and was the first head of its political bureau.
Dr. Abu Marzouk, thank you so much for being with us at Drop Site News.
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*You’re welcome. Thank you very much.
*Jeremy Scahill:*So the first question I want to ask you is that the
negotiations and meetings are just beginning now in Egypt, and Israel is
making clear that it is not going to agree to link withdrawal of Israeli
forces, in any real way, to the exchange of captives. Donald Trump
released a map, and it showed only a very small redeployment of Israeli
forces, and the Israelis are saying they are not going to agree to a
full withdrawal at this stage. What is your response, and how will the
movement approach that issue? Because these 48 Israeli captives, being
held by the movement, represent the leverage in the negotiations that
you have right now. What’s your response to this position of Israel?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*We know that during the period of dialogues,
discussions, and understandings, especially at this time, the Israelis
will place many obstacles in front of it. We spoke clearly when we
agreed on President Trump’s vision, thanking him for his initiative,
that the paragraph which concerns us is the one we will address.
Therefore, the first paragraph, which deals with prisoner exchanges—or
the withdrawal of Israeli forces, because it is impossible to have a
prisoner exchange while Israeli forces are present in the area. There
must be a significant and sufficient Israeli withdrawal for us to carry
out this exchange. Because without the withdrawal of Israeli forces, it
would be very difficult to carry out this process.
Therefore, in previous operations, we would cease fire permanently,
aerial activity would stop, and there were no Israeli forces in the
area. This allowed us to carry out exchange operations, which was
beneficial for the success and security of the operation itself. Because
we cannot guarantee that there won’t be any security breaches while
Israeli forces are present, especially leading to prisoners being
harmed. We want to preserve the lives and security of the prisoners to
the greatest extent possible, in addition to the safety of the people
and those involved in the exchange process. Therefore, it is difficult
for the negotiators or participants in the current discussions to accept
the presence of Israeli forces in the area while carrying out prisoner
exchanges.
*Jeremy Scahill:*If Israel is insisting that it will not negotiate its
withdrawal as a part of the discussion of the exchange of captives, will
Hamas, under any circumstances, agree to release Israel’s captives If
Israel says we will not link withdrawal to it? Will the movement under
any circumstances agree to release those Israeli captives if those are
the conditions?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*In my opinion, this issue will be very difficult, as
it will be difficult to have a prisoner exchange without the withdrawal
of Israeli forces from the area. The area of withdrawal may be a matter
of debate. However, they withdraw from all the areas that… especially
[the areas] where the prisoners are located—and we don’t know exactly
where the prisoners are. Even the negotiators in the current dialogues
do not know their locations. Therefore, they must withdraw from
populated areas. There cannot be an exchange [if the forces remain], and
the process will not take place. This would mean that Israel does not
want Trump’s plan to be implemented.
*Jeremy Scahill:*Well, according to Trump’s plan, there are three
separate stages of withdrawal. The first would be that Israeli forces
pull back a little bit, and then there’s the exchange of prisoners and
captives. And then they say an international force will come in, and
then Israeli forces will pull back to a second line, but only if an
international force is there. And then the third line is this buffer
zone that is supposed to encircle Gaza. And there, there isn’t a clear
roadmap for the Israelis ever leaving. So even in Trump’s plan, the full
withdrawal of Israeli troops does not have a structure like the deal
from January—which the Israelis violated. So you’re facing a situation
where there’s a game sort of being played by Trump with this proposal,
because even his withdrawal plan doesn’t envision a total withdrawal of
Israeli troops until some vague certification that Gaza doesn’t
represent a “threat” to Israel anymore.
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*I want to tell you a story that was shared with me
by the chief Egyptian negotiator, Major General Ahmed Abdel Khaleq. He
spoke with his Israeli intelligence counterpart about the map in the
American proposal. He asked him, “Do you understand anything from this?”
The Israeli replied, “No.” Why? Because this map has no meaning. It is
hand-drawn, with no spaces, distances, locations, or anything. While in
previous discussions, the text was clear: Israeli forces should withdraw
from residential areas and from the Salah al-Din line by a certain
number of meters.
The Gaza Strip in some areas is only 4000 meters wide. Therefore, it
must be clear that if Israel wants to disrupt the [negotiations], they
can do so from the first moment, through unclear and undefined maps—maps
that are not drawn professionally, meaning they weren’t drawn by a
cartographer or a military expert. These maps were drawn by people who
are used to camel races. They don’t know the basics of map-making. You
shouldn’t send maps like this; drawn like a rainbow.
Maps must have defined distances in meters in the Gaza Strip. Every
space must be considered, because for example, when we talk about the
east of Rafah, the width of the area is 14 kilometers, and when we talk
about areas like Netzarim and Nuseirat, we’re talking about 4.5
kilometers, or 4500 meters. This is 14 kilometers, and this is 4.5
kilometers. Therefore, the maps are drawn in an unprofessional way. And
if Israel wants to sabotage these [negotiations], the key to their
failure lies in the maps, because they can say anything about them. I
mean the negotiations.
Therefore, I believe the first point now must be to define the maps. As
I told you, neither the Israelis nor the Egyptians understood the maps
at all. Consequently, this will be the main obstacle. I believe—I’m not
on the negotiating team now but—that this issue will not move forward
without those maps being specified. The negotiators are clear that [the
Israeli forces] must withdraw completely from residential areas. We
cannot carry out an exchange while Israeli forces are present, as this
is to ensure the security of the Israeli prisoners themselves.
Anticipating Israeli Sabotage of a Deal
*Jeremy Scahill:*As you know, the Israelis are masters of violating
ceasefire agreements, not just with Palestinians, but also we see in
Lebanon. There was supposedly a ceasefire in Lebanon, and the Israelis
are violating it almost every single day and continuing to bomb Lebanon.
The resistance—the Palestinian resistance—is taking a big risk, if you
hand over all of the Israeli captives in one batch. What guarantees are
you looking for that Israel doesn’t just get all of its prisoners back,
and then immediately resume the genocide again after you hand them all
their prisoners?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk: *You are absolutely right, and I think there is a
risk. Israel does not honor signed agreements nor respect commitments.
Of course, this was very clear in the targeting of the negotiating
delegation in Qatar. A country that respects its commitments and
obligations would never target the people it is negotiating with for
assassination, especially when it needs those negotiators. The same
happened in Lebanon, and it is happening now. It also is happening now
in Syria—there are the 1974 understandings about disengagement zones
with Syria—yet Israel still respects nothing.
This is a risk, but we trusted President Trump to be the guarantor of
all the commitments made. President Trump acted when he halted a war
with Iran—then [Netanyahu] wanted to resume it and sent planes to strike
targets in Iran. President Trump recalled those planes while they were
en route to strike targets in Iran. So we know that President Trump is
capable of fulfilling his commitments and honoring his pledges, and he
is the primary guarantor of everything he says. And he stated clearly
that the war would stop, the Israeli army would withdraw in three
stages, and then a prisoner exchange would take place. Therefore, these
guarantees are sufficient for us to say that President Trump has
committed to these matters, allowing us to move forward in this
direction. Had there been no commitment from the American president, we
would never have agreed to take the risk, because we do not trust
Netanyahu or his extremist right‑wing team in the current Israeli
government. We have seen many previous Israeli governments and how they
often honored their words. However, I do not see this government as
being committed to anything.
Therefore, I say, when President Trump said he wanted the prisoners
released all at once—yes, it is possible the prisoners will be released
over a defined period of time, because doing it all at once would be
difficult. But there will remain a larger number of dead. The Israeli
dead are more than…We are talking about at least 28. These are in areas
where Israeli forces are currently present. Therefore, they must
withdraw, and we will need time to search for them. Frankly, we will
also seek the help of the Red Cross and many other resources, because
the Israeli army has altered the landmarks of the Gaza Strip through
destruction, digging, searching for tunnels, and the destruction of all
existing cemeteries. I am one of those people whose parents were buried
in a cemetery that now lies under the road that was paved—the
Philadelphia line. The entire cemetery is beneath that line. Israel has
completely changed the landmarks of cemeteries. Consequently, there are
dead in tunnels, people buried, and others under rubble. This is a very
difficult matter and will take time and may take months. They also want
their dead returned. So I do not think this will be something that will
be resolved in a few days.
*Jeremy Scahill: *You know what may be a little bit different in this
agreement versus the January ceasefire agreement or the earlier
temporary truces where there were captives exchanged, is that Trump now
has all of these Arab and Islamic countries that are very involved right
now. But, Dr. Abu Marzouk, we’ve watched for two years as no Arab
country or Islamic country except Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon and Ansar
Allah in Yemen have dared to use any military force against Israel. All
of these countries have stood on the side and watched the genocide of
the Palestinian people in Gaza. And the most they’ve done is issue a
strong statement. Even when Qatar was bombed in an attempt to kill the
Hamas senior leadership, no Arab country launched a missile at Israel.
If Israel violates this agreement with the Palestinians and resumes the
genocide, how can you trust that these Arab countries will do anything
other than issue a press release condemning it? In other words, you have
these countries that you’ve been dealing with in mediation, and they’re
giving you assurances that they’re going to make sure that Trump and
Israel keep the agreement. But they’ve watched a genocide for two years
and they’ve done nothing to stop it. So how can you trust even those
countries that are involved with this process?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*I do not want to talk about the extent of Arab and
Muslim support or abandonment of the battle in the Gaza Strip. But the
Arab and Islamic position recently has been aimed towards putting heavy
pressure on the U.S. administration to stop the genocide in Gaza.
If I want to speak historically, remember after the collapse of the
Soviet Union and the breakup of Yugoslavia into Croatia, Serbia,
Montenegro and Bosnia—you’re talking about several new states. In the
war between the Serbs and Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, the war
lasted three years. What stopped it was the intervention of Arabs and
Muslims before Europe, saying that if things stayed as they were we
would export weapons and help the Muslims in Bosnia to stop the
extermination. Then the Americans intervened at that time and produced
the Dayton Agreement, if I recall correctly, dividing Bosnia into three
entities and appointing a governor.
I believe that in stopping the genocide, there is a responsibility on
the Arabs and Muslims. As for them not fighting Israel—I’ll speak
frankly here. When the Arabs became friends with America, especially in
Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Qatar, Jordan—and now Syria is on the way—the main
weapons of those armies became American weapons. American weapons are
also present in Israel. It makes no sense for American weapons to face
American weapons. So the prospect of wars in the region that pit those
states against Israel becomes difficult. The evidence for that is what
happened in Qatar. When Iran struck the U.S. base in Qatar with
missiles, Qatari air defenses were able to intercept them. But when
F‑15s entered Qatari airspace and struck the negotiating delegation,
Qatari defenses could not engage American aircraft because they are
friendly planes. So how do you expect the Egyptian army to fight the
Israeli army when both use weapons that won’t engage one another?
Therefore I tell you the Arabs will not intervene militarily, because
all their weapons in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Lebanon and Egypt are
American. How do you fight American weapons with American weapons? So a
real responsibility falls on America—it must act in this regard. It
cannot let Israel control the whole region like this—that cannot happen.
When Egyptian weapons were Russian, they were able to wage the 1973 war.
When Russian weapons were present in places like Iraq, they were able to
deter. But now the weapons are American. How can these U.S.-friendly
states that possess American weapons confront Israeli aggression when
their defenses cannot engage Israeli aircraft? Here a great
responsibility lies with the United States: to protect its allies and
friends in the region, or the Arabs will find another path.
I think the Pakistan lesson for America on the world map is clear: when
the U.S. failed to resolve the problem between India and Pakistan and
placed restrictions on Pakistan, Pakistan turned to China. It turned out
China has weapons that surpass the American or Russian weapons that
India had. Pakistan ended the battle within hours with Chinese air power
and air defenses. Consequently, the Arabs will find themselves looking
for a third option. I say Turkey at one stage turned to Russia and
imported the S‑400 so it would have respectable air defenses. When the
United States is unable to supply its allies with what they need to
defend themselves, the picture changes. Therefore America must pay
attention and take responsibility in this regard. It must compel Israel
to a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.
Hamas’s View of Trump
*Jeremy Scahill:*Well, you were educated in the United States. You lived
in the United States for quite a long time. I want to get your
assessment of Donald Trump as a president, but also how the Hamas
movement has viewed the difference in dealing with Trump versus dealing
with Joe Biden.
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*Dealing with Trump is dealing with a person.
Meaning, Trump’s ego is very high. He likes to be unique and receive a
lot of praise. He is very eager for the Nobel Peace Prize, and therefore
he wants the problem solved today or tomorrow so that the vote on Friday
will be in his favor for receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. I advised him
on Al Jazeera the day before yesterday, I told him, “If you want the
Nobel Prize, don’t bring Netanyahu with you. Because Netanyahu is a man
wanted by international justice, Netanyahu is a war criminal, and
Netanyahu will ruin your chances of getting the Nobel. Just keep
Netanyahu away and tie him down.”
Moreover, he does not adhere to the rules. The rules that America
established after World War II for it to be the country that leads the
world towards American principles. I believe that today Trump has
changed many of these rules and no longer respects many of the existing
norms. No international law, no bilateral agreements, no international
agreements, no United Nations and its charter. He does not respect the
rules on which this system was built, but has not provided an
alternative. Therefore, it is difficult to predict what he will do. But
we have to deal with this reality, and I believe it is not just a
problem for me alone—it is also a problem for Netanyahu and his team. It
also creates a dilemma for him. That’s why when Netanyahu wanted to
object to the agreement, [Trump] said, “you are bound by it. Take it as
it is,” and he bound him to it. He can bind Netanyahu to the vision he
sees, especially in the first stage, which is the stage of Israeli
forces withdrawing, ending the war, providing aid to the Palestinian
people, and releasing prisoners.
*Jeremy Scahill: *Does the Hamas movement and your leadership, do you
assess right now that you believe Trump actually wants to end this war
and that he is willing to essentially order Netanyahu to stop it?
Because Trump is the only person in the world that can stop Netanyahu at
this point. Do you think—do you really believe that he wants this war to
end?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*Even if I assume that Netanyahu wants to continue
the war for other goals related to the Palestinian people and their
forced displacement and other similar matters, I believe that the whole
world is now against the war. I think the statistics in American
society, specifically within the Republican Party or among the Jews in
the United States, generally show that most of them want the war to
stop. I believe that Trump cannot stand with Netanyahu in opposition to
the Republican Party, Jews in America, and the entire world. Because, is
there anyone in the world today standing with Netanyahu in continuing
the war?
The war in Lebanon lasted two months, the war in Syria lasted two days
after Assad’s collapse, the war in Iran lasted two weeks. Today, we will
have been in the war for two years. There has never been in history an
open war, a genocide broadcast on television like this war, a war in
which starvation is used as a weapon, the killing of children is used as
a weapon, and the blocking of medicine is used as a weapon. Is it
possible that Trump is devoid of humanity to this extent? Is that
possible? I find it highly unlikely that Netanyahu—I mean Trump—would
accept the war to continue.
Hamas’s Fight to Free Palestinian Prisoners
*Jeremy Scahill: *I want to ask you about the issue of Palestinian
captives being held by Israel. We understand that as many as 15,000
Palestinians are now being held in Israeli jails, military camps,
administrative detention, including many women and children. And that
thousands of Palestinians, maybe 4,000 or more, were taken from Gaza
since October 7. And in Trump’s plan, in return for returning the 48
Israelis—28 deceased and 20 living—that 250 Palestinians currently
serving life sentences in Israel and 1,700 Palestinians from Gaza,
including all of the women and children, would be freed in this exchange
deal. Now, in previous negotiations, Hamas was also negotiating to try
to get more of those Palestinians taken from Gaza after October 7th
freed, as well as prisoners who were serving long sentences but not life
sentences. This deal says 250 life sentence prisoners. Are these numbers
acceptable to Hamas right now in these negotiations, or do you want to
see more Palestinians freed as part of this negotiation?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*I don’t think that when President Trump set those
numbers he meant that those exact figures are how many Palestinians will
be released in exchange. I believe he doesn’t even know how many Israeli
prisoners are still alive. Nor do we—speaking for myself, I don’t know
either. I don’t know the number of [Israelis] deceased in Gaza, I don’t
know how many. He doesn’t know how many prisoners are held by Hamas
versus others, nor the number of Israeli dead held by Hamas versus
others. These are all estimated, undefined numbers. Therefore this issue
must have criteria, dates, and details, and I think this is one of the
items that should be discussed in the first phase.
*Jeremy Scahill: *There were reports this week that Netanyahu has told
Ben Gvir and others that under no circumstances will he free Marwan
Barghouti, Ahmed Sa’adat, Abdullah Barghouti, and other very well known
Palestinian political prisoners. I know that in each of these rounds,
Marwan Barghouti, Ahmed Sa’adat, Abdullah Barghouti have always been a
demand of the Palestinian resistance in these negotiations. Do you
believe you can achieve the freedom of Marwan Barghouti, Ahmed Sa’adat
and Abdullah Barghouti?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*Believe me, these individuals will be at the top of
the priorities in the current talks. This is because they are a
necessity for Palestinian unity and solidarity, and for their history
and symbolism in the struggle. They must be among the prisoners to be
released. But in the past we included them in every prisoner exchange,
and they always refused to release those leaders. I don’t know about
this matter, and I cannot discuss it because anything related to
prisoner exchanges is open to negotiation, meaning it will be part of
the discussions at present. Also, both parties must agree to anything to
reach an agreement. One side can’t unilaterally decide to release a
certain number without an agreement—there must be one. It will also be a
top priority for us that these leaders are released.
*Jeremy Scahill: *There were reports in earlier negotiations that there
were officials from the Palestinian Authority, working under Mahmoud
Abbas, who told the mediators that they did not want Marwan Barghouti
freed. Are these reports true that the Palestinian Authority, or anyone
representing it, interfered to try to stop Marwan Barghouti from being
released in earlier exchange deals?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*If the one saying this… I haven’t heard [anything
official], I’ve heard analyses. But I don’t think anyone from Fatah
would officially dare to say such a thing. Marwan Barghouti, in all
opinion polls, is number one—number one for the Palestinian presidency,
number one in popularity, number one if there were elections. So I don’t
think anyone would officially say, “we don’t want to release Marwan
Barghouti from detention.” But as an analysis based on people’s
opinions—yes, there could be such a view.
On Disarmament
*Jeremy Scahill:*I want to ask you, I’m going to ask you also a couple
of historical questions because you’ve been a leader in this movement
for so long. But just one brief question about the current negotiations.
This issue of disarmament. You know, the Israelis focus on this a lot
and they, if you listen to the Israelis, you would think that Hamas has
tanks and aircraft and massive artillery, when the reality is that with
the exception of the rockets, most of the weapons in the hands of the
resistance are manufactured in Gaza. They’re small arms, including on
October 7th in Operation Al Aqsa Flood, these were mostly small weapons
that were used, not big conventional tanks or anything like this. But
they’re making this the issue, and in a way it’s a proxy issue because
they want the Palestinians to surrender. That’s clear.
But on this issue of the weapons, how can Hamas navigate this? Because
the Israelis are demanding disarmament, but they know very well that
Hamas, that Qassam Brigades and Saraya Al Quds, they have homemade
weapons. How are you going to be able to navigate this? Are you, is
there some openness to saying, “Okay, we’ll give you these weapons?” I
know that the resistance has said it’s a red line, “We will not accept
disarmament. This is about the survival of Palestine and the rights of
self defense and self determination.” But is there some tactical
configuration that you’ll entertain to address this issue, if you
understand what I mean?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk: *First, anything that is up for discussion or
negotiation now in Sharm El-Sheikh is difficult to speak about publicly
in the media from any leadership level. However, I am very surprised at
those who keep raising the issue of disarming Hamas. The Israelis
themselves said they eliminated most of the Qassam brigades in Gaza—in
the north, in Khan Younis, and in Rafah—and that there is essentially no
one left from Qassam Brigades. President Trump said 25,000 members of
Qassam were killed, and their numbers are roughly of that order. Israel
also recently announced that most of Hamas’s military capabilities were
destroyed—they said 90% of Hamas’s capabilities were wiped out. So if
they destroyed 90% of Hamas’s military capabilities and killed most of
Qassam’s fighters, as President Trump says, whose weapons are you going
to disarm and where are the weapons you claim you’ll remove when you
already destroyed them?
Frankly, statements of this kind are often rhetoric that does not
reflect reality—rather, the purpose of them is to accept defeat in the
battle. If you fought for two years against a resistance movement and
still could not decisively end it, is it possible that you will get what
you want at the negotiating table on this issue? I think that is very
difficult. Therefore they need to lower their expectations a lot in this
regard. Also, we are talking about the future and shaping it. Weapons
may come and go, but the commitments and adherence to them are what must
be honored and discussed. If you have a pledge from a party that it will
not use weapons, or that it is under a truce or a ceasefire, that
should, without doubt, be more important than searching how many rifles
Hamas has or what missiles or “nuclear bombs” it might possess. We don’t
even have… What weapons do we have to be talking about this at such level?
Responding to Trump While Preserving the Right to Self-determination
*Jeremy Scahill: *When Hamas responded to President Trump, it did so
after consulting with a wide range of Palestinian political parties and
factions and leaders, as well as the ground leaders inside of Gaza. And
your response was split into two basic sections. One was saying that
Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a right or a mandate to negotiate the end
of the war because they’re holding the captives and they’re fighting.
But the other was about Palestinian national questions. And so your
statement was quite crafty because it didn’t reject Trump, but it said
you need to negotiate with all Palestinians. Explain that strategy that
you opted for in responding to Trump, sort of saying, “Yes, the
resistance can negotiate these issues about the captives, the withdrawal
and a ceasefire, but these other issues are a national question.” Talk
about that strategy.
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*This strategy began when we met the mediators and
they presented the proposal. I told them right away that a large part of
President Trump’s proposal is something Hamas is not authorized to agree
to. We are not mandated to decide the Palestinian people’s future. There
are factions, civil society forces, the Palestinian Authority, the PLO,
and the entire people who will determine their future, choose their
leadership, and decide how they position themselves geographically and
politically. We are not authorized to do that, so we proposed that we
speak only for what we do have [authority over]. And what we do not have
[authority over] and cannot speak on unilaterally, we will deal
responsibly with. From that came the idea of having the response on two
aspects: one aspect concerns the movement of Hamas—issues tied to the
fighting, prisoners, aid, withdrawal from Gaza, and all those
substantive issues related to Hamas.
The other aspect of our strategy is dealing with the whole Palestinian
homeland: the factions, Fatah, the Popular Front, all factions, the
Palestinian Authority, and the PLO—and it’s acceptable for the PLO to be
the umbrella, we have no problem with that. But all Palestinians must be
the ones to address all issues concerning the future of the Gaza Strip.
For example, when we discussed Gaza’s future, we Palestinians agreed
there should be an independent technocratic committee, non-partisan and
competent, that would come to govern Gaza. And they would be from Gaza
itself, with their primary affiliation to the Palestinian Authority. We
agreed to that. We have no problem with some of our Palestinian brothers
from any political direction being the ones on the ground in Gaza the
day after.
Therefore, this strategy was developed to enable us to unite the
Palestinian homeland so it can decide Gaza’s future: international
emergency forces, areas, the “buffer zone”—all of this must be discussed
because it belongs to all Palestinians, not just to Hamas. That is how
the idea emerged. The first aspect—which President Trump announced—is
withdrawal and an end to the war in exchange for the prisoners. The
second aspect is how we build all civil institutions and the political
community that exist in Gaza.
<https://substack.com/redirect/db54f5df-adf9-4692-8225-9efbfc51adde?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM>
Mousa Abu Marzouk, left, speaks alongside Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh
during a visit with families of Hamas officials killed by Israel in
Gaza, May 2, 2014. Haniyeh was assassinated by Israel in Tehran, Iran in
July 2024. (Photo by Mohammed Talatene/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images)
The Future of Hamas and the Legacy of October 7th
*Jeremy Scahill: *How do you see the future of Hamas? You know, of
course Netanyahu says, oh, he’s going to destroy Hamas. And, and often
in the American media, Hamas is written about as though it’s almost like
a foreign body that came into Palestine and needs to just go home. But
the reality is that and you know, you were in Hamas from the very
beginning of the movement. Hamas is part of the fabric of Palestinian
society. And yes, it’s a resistance movement, but it also was a
governing authority for two decades in Gaza. And I’m wondering, even
though Hamas is saying that it is willing to relinquish governance of
Gaza, what is the future of Hamas in your view, Dr. Abu Marzouk?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*If you look at the last elections, Hamas won the
majority, nearly 66 seats out of 120 or 130 seats. This means Hamas won
most of the seats in the legislative council, while the other factions,
including Fatah, won fewer than 34 seats. Hamas is no longer a small
organization that any great or small state can remove from Palestine.
Hamas is present in the West Bank—it is the strongest organization
there—it exists abroad, everywhere, inside in the ’48 territories. Hamas
is everywhere—no one can cancel its existence. But Hamas is no longer
[simply] an organization. Hamas is now hope. Hamas is an idea. So don’t
be surprised that most Arab and Muslim masses chant for Hamas.
Today, when the U.S. decided to pursue Hamas financially and Arab
countries cut their aid to Hamas, they still couldn’t erase its
presence. You are talking about more than a billion Muslims who see
Hamas as hope for them, because Hamas defends the holiest sanctities of
Muslims—al‑Aqsa Mosque. For every Muslim, Hamas is seen as defending
al‑Aqsa. Therefore, Hamas has become an idea that exists across this
wide swath of Arabs and Muslims.
When I was imprisoned in Manhattan, New York, I used to receive mail
from across the Islamic world—I was then head of the political bureau. I
would get a huge mail bag every day with more than 300 letters. Even the
warden was surprised, “Who is this receiving 300 letters every day?”
Letters from Russia, Canada, Australia, and throughout the Islamic
world. The FBI began to investigate: “If we keep him detained, what will
happen to Americans?” They conducted hundreds of interviews of people in
different parts of the Islamic world, asking “do you know so‑and‑so? Do
you know Mousa Abu Marzouk?” “If he is arrested or handed over to
Israel, what will your reaction be?” They were talking about a person,
not about Hamas as a movement, across the entire Arab and Islamic
world—and even across larger communities in the U.S., Canada, Australia,
and Britain.
So you are talking about Hamas that defends the holiest sanctities of
Muslims—al‑Aqsa Mosque. Hamas that defends the most sacred
land—Palestine. Hamas has become an idea present in the entire Islamic
world, not only present in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or occupied
Palestine or abroad—it exists across the whole Arab‑Islamic world. What
are they talking about? Hamas is not al‑Qaeda. Al‑Qaeda was created by
U.S. intelligence for other purposes, but Hamas is a different creation.
A different creation—a creation of the conscience of all Muslims.
Therefore, Hamas is not like any other Palestinian organization either.
The best way to deal with Hamas is to understand it and to deal with it
responsibly.
Otherwise, look at what you see across the world today and the
steadfastness you have witnessed for two years while Israel fights—is
Israel really fighting Hamas? Think a little when you talk about Hamas
as an armed organization like any other Palestinian organization. Israel
has failed to eliminate this organization in two years of war. It has
killed more than 100,000 people and wounded more than 150,000 or
200,000—it has killed over 12% of the Palestinian people. And Hamas
still stands, does not raise the white flag, and will not raise the
white flag. Why? Is there a people who embrace a movement to this extent
while considering it something foreign?
Therefore, political understanding about the future and security with
Hamas is a thousand times better than current attempts to isolate Hamas.
Isolating Hamas is impossible. Hamas is not just the names known to
Israeli intelligence or the Shin Bet—those people can be eliminated and
no one remains of them, but Hamas is an idea planted in the entire
Palestinian people. Do you want to expel the entire Palestinian people,
whether in the West Bank, Gaza, or abroad? I think that’s impossible. So
the best approach is to reach an understanding with Hamas regarding
security, safety, and Palestinian rights.
*Jeremy Scahill:*Last question for you, Dr. Abu Marzouk. This week
there’s going to be a lot of focus on the two year anniversary of
October 7th. And much of the western media coverage is going to be
focused on what took place in Israel on October 7th. And I wanted to ask
you, what you think the legacy or the impact of Operation Al Aqsa Flood?
What you think the impact of those operations carried out by the
Palestinian resistance groups against Israel two years ago? How is
history going to view Operation Al Aqsa Flood and what was its impact?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk: *This is a big question. There are always events
that are huge and have a massive impact, but their strategic
implications are small. And sometimes a small event can have huge
strategic implications. For example, when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor
and destroyed the U.S. fleet. The operation was obviously, to the
Japanese, well-planned. But strategically, Japan lost the war because it
brought America into the conflict.
Today, in this war, Israel exploited this small, limited war in the Gaza
Strip to fight the Palestinian people and displace them, pursuing goals
that are far-reaching and connected to the Zionist project itself.
Israel used tools without restraint such as genocide, starvation, random
killings, destruction, and collective punishment—violating every law
that humanity has civilly developed over time. In reality, Israel has
lost its global support, which it once had in abundance.
The second point is the Israeli narrative—meaning, Israel was the
solution to the Jewish problem in Europe, and the sympathy came because
of European crimes against Jews and that the Zionist movement solved the
Jewish problem. Israel received immense sympathy from Europe and the
United States. Today, what Israel has done to the Palestinian people has
completely undermined this idea: the notion of victimhood, the idea of
fighting anti-Semitism, and the moral sympathy for Israel. Now, Israel
is exposed to pressure, to the International Criminal Court, to
boycotts, and massive protests in the West. Israel once gained support
for its narrative from the people and governments of the West. Today,
governments are hesitant, and the people all support the Palestinian cause.
This shift in narrative is the creation of Netanyahu. This is what
Netanyahu has made, not what was made on [October 7th]. It is a
reaction, a desire for revenge, a desire to kill the other—the
Palestinian people. Netanyahu is the one who created this situation,
while [October 7th] is a narrative that was not as Netanyahu and his
Israeli team have portrayed it to justify the killing of the Palestinian
people. [October 7th] was a group of no more than 1,200 to 1,500 Qassam
fighters who fought the Gaza Brigade. The Gaza Brigade collapsed, and
these fighters had no choice but to rush into the frontline settlements.
In these settlements, they barricaded themselves, and then the Israeli
army came. They tried to save themselves by confining [Israeli]
civilians to escape and return to Gaza. They were bombed by planes and
artillery, and many were killed. The people who died at the music
concert were killed by planes and tanks, not by the 1,500 men who
entered with light weapons. Light weapons, limited cars, and gliders
that were as if a joke. They couldn’t have killed so many, as they had
no ammunition or weapons [to cause such casualties]. This number was
killed [by Israel] and was proven by Israeli accounts.
Now, they’ve come up with different images, claiming there was rape.
This is not true. Even if there were some testimonies here and there, if
you examined them—and this is what we asked. Just examine the cases,
man! Let a neutral team come and say that there was one rape case. I’m
telling you with certainty, there wasn’t. And they claim there were
beheadings and such. Where are the beheadings? And burning children?
These are lies they’ve manufactured and turned into a narrative similar
to the Holocaust narrative. They now say Hamas created a Holocaust on
October 7th, but this is not true. I tell you, the operation was much
simpler than that. There is no way that an operation consisting of 1,500
men could have launched to destroy Israel and for them to consider it an
existential war. Let people think for a moment. Is it possible that
1,500 people who entered were planning an existential war against
Israel? This was a movement for the liberation of prisoners. That’s the
whole story.
The prisoners hold immense value for the Palestinian people. Therefore,
it is impossible for [Marwan] Barghouti to spend his entire life in
prison, having fought for his people, while people do nothing to save
his life. This is October 7th. As for what followed, it is very clear
that Israel cannot defend itself. That’s why it called upon the U.S.,
Britain, and France to defend it—against Iranian missiles as an example.
The entire West came with its tanks and fleets to help Israel.
Do you know that October 7th, because of the blind stance taken by the
Western countries, was a huge opportunity for major strategic changes in
the entire region? The Russia-Ukraine war, the strategic shift that
occurred in favor of Russia, because the entire West, instead of
supporting Ukraine, ended up supporting Israel, causing Ukraine to lose
the battle. America’s strategy was to counter the expansion of China,
and that’s why China was very happy for two reasons. It was happy with
America’s strategic mindset when it made bin Laden the central enemy,
chasing him everywhere, while China was growing and thriving, producing
now what the U.S. is not able to produce. Then, after bin Laden, America
adopted ISIS, which it created, as the central war target, and let China
grow and flourish.
Now, America’s plan was to focus on China once everything was done, but
suddenly, all of this shifted to focusing on protecting Israel. From
whom? From whom are they protecting Israel? All the countries
surrounding Israel are allies. The landscape doesn’t allow for the
destruction of Israel—the geographical landscape. Neither Jordan nor
Egypt would allow the destruction of Israel. So, how about you? You
changed your entire policy and redirected all your strategic resources
to support Israel. Consequently, China is among the happiest with this
war, and Russia is also among the happiest. The U.S. lost strategically
for the support of one madman named Netanyahu. This is October 7th.
*Jeremy Scahill:*Just briefly, what’s your message to President Trump
and the American people right now?
*Mousa Abu Marzouk:*I have one sentence to say to President Trump: Thank
you for your efforts, and for your promise to stop the war and release
the prisoners. We are committed to it. Just stop the war. Stopping the
war means a complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. I want Trump to
fulfill his pledge and promise.
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