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style="display:none;font-size:1px;color:#333333;line-height:1px;max-height:0px;max-width:0px;opacity:0;overflow:hidden;">Hamas
says it wants to make a deal and sees Trump as the key, but will
not \u201craise the white flag.\u201d</div>
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href="https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2510348&post_id=175546952&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=lvppb&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjozNjc1MTU4MywicG9zdF9pZCI6MTc1NTQ2OTUyLCJpYXQiOjE3NTk4NjQ4NTYsImV4cCI6MTc2MjQ1Njg1NiwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI1MTAzNDgiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.tQbE8jmE37H4nSoLnzYhPsgqK_wUGfbOfFt-kYrlGVk"
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moz-do-not-send="true">Exclusive: Senior Hamas
Leader Mousa Abu Marzouk on Trump\u2019s Gaza Plan
and the Future of Hamas</a></h1>
<h3 class="subtitle subtitle-HEEcLo" dir="auto"
style="direction: auto;text-align: start;unicode-bidi: isolate;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: normal;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 4px 0 0;color: #777777;line-height: 24px;font-size: 18px;margin-top: 12px;">Hamas
says it wants to make a deal and sees Trump as the
key, but will not \u201craise the white flag.\u201d</h3>
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href="https://substack.com/@jeremyscahill" moz-do-not-send="true">Jeremy
Scahill</a></div>
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datetime="2025-10-07T19:20:05.999Z">Oct 7, 2025</time></div>
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<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/fb4f6fc7-35c5-4b12-9cd1-8fd43ab06725?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
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alt="" height="793" width="1456"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;display: block;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;height: auto;margin-bottom: 0;max-width: 100% !important;margin: 0 auto;width: 100%;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a><figcaption
class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Senior
Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzouk in an interview
with Drop Site\u2019s Jeremy Scahill on October 6,
2025.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cThere
has never been in history an open war, a genocide
broadcast on television like this war, a war in
which starvation is used as a weapon, the killing
of children is used as a weapon, and the blocking
of medicine is used as a weapon. Is it possible
that Trump is devoid of humanity to this extent?
Is that possible?\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Amidst
high-stakes talks underway in Egypt that will
determine the future of the Gaza war, Mousa Abu
Marzouk, an original member of Hamas who remains a
senior official within the movement, is calling on
President Donald Trump to block Israeli attempts
to sabotage an agreement and to use his influence
to bring an end to the two year genocide.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">In
an exclusive interview with Drop Site on Monday,
Abu Marzouk said, \u201cStopping the war means a
complete [Israeli] withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.
I want Trump to fulfill his pledge and promise.\u201d
Addressing Trump, Abu Marzouk said, \u201cThank you for
your efforts, and for your promise to stop the war
and release the prisoners. We are committed to it.
Just stop the war.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>Under
Trump\u2019s </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/3a62799e-e266-489b-8a50-03bf0ba4a3cc?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">20-point plan</a><span>
released last week during a joint appearance at
the White House with Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu, the initial phase of a
ceasefire deal would require Hamas to release
all Israeli captives remaining in Gaza within a
72-hour period. There are believed to be 48 in
total\u201420 of them living and 28 deceased. In
return, Israel would then free nearly 2,000
Palestinians\u2014250 serving life sentences and
1,700 people, including all women and children,
snatched from Gaza after the October 7 attacks.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Israel
is insisting that it will not link its total
withdrawal from Gaza to the exchange of captives
and Netanyahu has said Israeli forces will remain
entrenched in Gaza indefinitely. Hamas,
recognizing that the Israeli captives represent
its primary\u2014if not exclusive\u2014leverage in making
any deal have said that the exchange must be
linked to a clear roadmap to total Israeli
withdrawal, an end to the genocide and the
delivery of massive amounts of food and other life
essentials.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><em>Watch
the full interview:</em></p>
<a class="youtube-wrap"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/bb4189cd-ab00-4741-a657-e46b07a7218c?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
target="_blank"
data-component-name="Youtube2ToDOMStatic"
style="display: block;margin: 32px 0;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/youtube/w_728,c_limit/l_youtube_play_qyqt8q,w_120/ofRgj2-cH80"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;max-width: 100%;height: auto;margin: 0 auto;display: block;width: 100%;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">In
a wide-ranging interview with Drop Site, which is
printed below in-full, Abu Marzouk discussed the
core issues at the center of the indirect
negotiations in Sharm El-Sheikh, Hamas\u2019s view of
Trump, and how he sees the future of Hamas. Abu
Marzouk, who joined Hamas upon its founding in
1987, was the first head of the movement\u2019s
political bureau and has served in various senior
posts in the ensuing decades. He said that Hamas
recognizes the inherent risks that Israel would
try to retrieve all captives held by Hamas in Gaza
and then resume the genocide.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWe
know that during the period of dialogues,
discussions, and understandings, especially at
this time, the Israelis will place many obstacles
in front of it,\u201d Abu Marzouk said. But he added
that the blunt reality is that only Trump has the
power to bring an immediate halt to Israel\u2019s war.
\u201cThis is a risk, but we trusted President Trump to
be the guarantor of all the commitments made,\u201d
said Abu Marzouk. \u201cHad there been no commitment
from the American president, we would never have
agreed to take the risk, because we do not trust
Netanyahu or his extremist right\u2011wing team in the
current Israeli government.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>Last
Friday, after days of consultations with a range
of Palestinian factions and leaders, as well as
armed resistance commanders and the political
leadership inside Gaza, Hamas delivered its
official response to Trump\u2019s proposal. The
carefully-crafted text </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/c184bf6b-3de3-41cc-9dc0-7f3f7689c328?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">threaded a needle</a><span>
by affirming Hamas\u2019s commitment to reaching a
deal that would see all Israeli captives
released and a clear commitment that Hamas would
relinquish governing authority in the Gaza
Strip. But the statement was not a wholesale
embrace of Trump\u2019s plan. Instead, Hamas
indicated that it was authorized to negotiate an
end to the war but did not have the mandate to
unilaterally reach an agreement on issues that
impact the future of Palestinian
self-determination, governance and statehood.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWhen
we met the mediators and they presented the
proposal, I told them right away that a large part
of President Trump\u2019s proposal is something Hamas
is not authorized to agree to. We are not mandated
to decide the Palestinian people\u2019s future,\u201d Abu
Marzouk told Drop Site. \u201cThis strategy was
developed to enable us to unite the Palestinian
homeland so it can decide Gaza\u2019s future,\u201d he
added. \u201cAll of this must be discussed because it
belongs to all Palestinians, not just to Hamas.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Trump
responded enthusiastically to Hamas\u2019s statement,
writing in a post on Truth Social, \u201cBased on the
Statement just issued by Hamas, I believe they are
ready for a lasting PEACE. Israel must immediately
stop the bombing of Gaza, so that we can get the
Hostages out safely and quickly!\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">But
as Trump administration officials conferred with
Netanyahu\u2019s team, it became apparent that the
strategy heading into the talks in Egypt was to
issue a set of directives to the Palestinian side
rather than engaging in substantive negotiations
on the central issues Hamas made clear would need
to be addressed in any deal. These include a
permanent ceasefire, a complete Israeli withdrawal
guaranteed by Trump and Arab and Islamic
countries, and unrestricted aid to Gaza. Hamas has
called disarmament of the Palestinian resistance a
\u201cred line.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Netanyahu
has maintained that his goal is the total
demilitarization of the Gaza Strip and to use the
Trump framework to achieve what Israel has failed
to do in two months of genocidal war, a surrender
of the Palestinian liberation struggle.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cFrankly,
statements of this kind are often rhetoric that
does not reflect reality\u2014rather, the purpose of
them is to accept defeat in the battle. If you
fought for two years against a resistance movement
and still could not decisively end it, is it
possible that you will get what you want at the
negotiating table on this issue?\u201d said Abu
Marzouk. \u201cIf you have a pledge from a party that
it will not use weapons, or that it is under a
truce or a ceasefire, that should, without doubt,
be more important than searching how many rifles
Hamas has.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
Israeli demand that Gaza be demilitarized and the
resistance disarmed, Abu Marzouk said, is aimed at
justifying the continued war of annihilation
against Palestinians in Gaza. With the exception
of its rockets, which have largely been depleted
or destroyed over the past two years, the
Palestinian resistance in Gaza overwhelmingly
relies on homemade weapons and ammunition as well
as repurposed Israeli ordnance used in Gaza.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cPresident
Trump said 25,000 members of Qassam were killed,\u201d
he said, adding that this estimate is equivalent
to public estimates of the total size of the
Qassam Brigades, Hamas\u2019s armed wing. \u201cIsrael also
recently announced that most of Hamas\u2019s military
capabilities were destroyed\u2014they said 90% of
Hamas\u2019s capabilities were wiped out. So if they
destroyed 90% of Hamas\u2019s military capabilities and
killed most of Qassam\u2019s fighters, as President
Trump says, whose weapons are you going to disarm
and where are the weapons you claim you\u2019ll remove
when you already destroyed them?\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Leading
the U.S. delegation to the talks in Egypt are
Trump\u2019s son-in-law Jared Kushner and Special Envoy
Steve Witkoff. Ron Dermer, Netanyahu\u2019s top advisor
and minister of strategic affairs, will oversee
Israel\u2019s team. Hamas\u2019s negotiators are led by
Khalil Al-Hayya, who survived an Israeli
assassination attempt in Doha, Qatar on September
9. Al-Hayya\u2019s son was killed in the Israeli
bombing and his wife, daughter-in-law and
grandchildren were injured.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWe
have come today to the city of Sharm El-Sheikh to
conduct responsible and serious negotiations,\u201d
said Al-Hayya in a brief interview with Egyptian
television on Tuesday. \u201cWe carry with us the
concerns, pains, and sorrows of our people, and
the sacrifices made: martyrs, destroyed homes, and
devastation through a brutal war that lasted two
years, waged by the Israeli occupation against our
people. All of these pains we carry with us, and
we also carry the goals and aspirations of our
people for stability, freedom, the establishment
of a state, and self-determination.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Al-Hayya
noted that since Hamas submitted its response to
Trump\u2019s plan on Friday, and Trump called for an
end to the bombing, Israel had continued its
deadly military assault on Gaza. He cited Israel\u2019s
long history of violating agreements, including
the January 2025 ceasefire deal endorsed by Trump
and former President Joe Biden.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cTherefore,
we demand real guarantees from the international
community, from President Trump and the United
States, and from the sponsoring countries,\u201d
Al-Hayya said. \u201cWe are fully ready and positive to
reach an end to the war, withdrawal, and a
prisoner exchange\u2014so that this war ends forever,
and our Palestinian people may live in stability
and peace, in accordance with their legitimate
aspirations, like all other peoples of the region
in which we live.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Over
the past two days, Trump has expressed confidence
a deal will be reached within days, but sources
close to the Palestinian negotiators have told
Drop Site that a range of technical details need
to be worked out. They also emphasized that Hamas
is not going to simply agree to the dictates of
Israel and will firmly assert its bottom line.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Qatar
and Egypt have served as the primary regional
mediators throughout the Gaza genocide and, in
recent weeks, Turkey has played a significant
role, particularly in the discussions with Hamas
leading up to the movement\u2019s response to Trump\u2019s
plan. \u201cNegotiations are currently focused
primarily on identifying the obstacles hindering
the implementation of Trump\u2019s plan and examining
the practical details of its execution,\u201d Qatar\u2019s
foreign ministry said in a statement on Tuesday.
\u201cThe current moment is not suitable for discussing
or speculating about the obstacles to implementing
the plan.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">While
Abu Marzouk said that Hamas is approaching the
negotiations in Egypt in a spirit of flexibility
and wants to achieve an agreement that ends a
genocidal war during which Israel has killed well
over 60,000 Palestinians, he cautioned that there
are logistical challenges to a release of all
Israeli captives.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWhen
President Trump said he wanted the prisoners
released all at once\u2014yes, it is possible the
prisoners will be released over a defined period
of time, because doing it all at once would be
difficult,\u201d Abu Marzouk said. He added that the
bodies of many deceased Israeli captives are under
rubble or in tunnels bombed by Israeli forces.
\u201cThese are in areas where Israeli forces are
currently present. Therefore, they must withdraw,
and we will need time to search for them,\u201d he
added. \u201cThe Israeli army has altered the landmarks
of the Gaza Strip through destruction, digging,
searching for tunnels, and the destruction of all
existing cemeteries. I am one of those people
whose parents were buried in a cemetery that now
lies under the road that was paved\u2014the
Philadelphia line. The entire cemetery is beneath
that line.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Hamas
wants the Israeli forces to first withdraw from
areas inside Gaza to facilitate recovery of
bodies. \u201cThey must withdraw from populated areas.
There cannot be an exchange [if the forces
remain], and the process will not take place. This
would mean that Israel does not want Trump\u2019s plan
to be implemented.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Throughout
the negotiations of the past two years, Hamas has
fought to secure the freedom of as many
Palestinians held by Israel in return for
releasing Israelis held in Gaza. While the Trump
plan framework provides for nearly 2,000
Palestinians to be freed, Netanyahu has refused to
include the most high-profile Palestinian
prisoners in any exchanges.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">On
Sunday, he reportedly promised Israel\u2019s fanatical,
right-wing interior minister Itamar Ben-Gvir that
he would not release Marwan Barghouti and other
revered Palestinian leaders who are serving life
sentences in Israel. Barghouti is the single most
popular Palestinian leader and public polls
indicate he would be the top choice to serve as
head of state of an independent Palestine.
Ben-Gvir recently stormed Barghouti\u2019s cell and
verbally assaulted him. He has also been
repeatedly subjected to beatings and other abuse
in Israeli custody. Hamas is also demanding the
release of Ahmad Sa\u2019adat, Secretary-General of the
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and
Abdullah Barghouti, a senior commander of the
Qassam Brigades, who was sentenced in 2003 to 67
life terms, the longest sentence ever imposed on a
Palestinian by Israel.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cThese
individuals will be at the top of the priorities
in the current talks. This is because they are a
necessity for Palestinian unity and solidarity,
and for their history and symbolism in the
struggle. They must be among the prisoners to be
released,\u201d said Abu Marzouk. \u201cThe prisoners hold
immense value for the Palestinian people.
Therefore, it is impossible for [Marwan] Barghouti
to spend his entire life in prison, having fought
for his people, while people do nothing to save
his life.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Abu
Marzouk has spent decades building Hamas as a
resistance and political movement. In 1951, he was
born a refugee in Rafah, in the Gaza Strip, after
his family was forcibly displaced from their land
in 1948. An engineer by trade with a Master\u2019s
Degree from Colorado State University, he received
his PhD from Louisiana Tech in 1991, the same year
he was elected chairman of the Hamas Political
Bureau. In July 1995, he was detained at New
York\u2019s JFK airport after his name came up on a
\u201cterror watchlist.\u201d He spent 22 months in prison
before being deported to Jordan in 1997.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">In
2002, although he had left the U.S., Abu Marzouk
was indicted by a federal grand jury in the U.S.
on charges he and two other men conspired to
illegally finance a terrorist organization. In
2004, he was hit with another indictment, in
absentia, on charges he was organizing the
financing of \u201cterrorist activities in Israel, the
West Bank and the Gaza Strip.\u201d</p>
<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;">
<table class="image-wrapper" width="100%"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
data-component-name="Image2ToDOMStatic"
style="mso-padding-alt: 1em 0 1.6em;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
<td class="content" align="left"
width="1024" style="text-align: center;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/ed96e7f6-4e9c-4160-9dfc-ce6b5bb43bdf?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="position: relative;flex-direction: column;align-items: center;padding: 0;width: auto;height: auto;border: none;text-decoration: none;display: block;margin: 0;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
class="wide-image"
data-attrs="{"src":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/fab4e178-f1b0-478c-9ec3-f1fa7ab611de_1024x768.jpeg","srcNoWatermark":null,"fullscreen":null,"imageSize":null,"height":768,"width":1024,"resizeWidth":null,"bytes":111056,"alt":null,"title":null,"type":"image/jpeg","href":null,"belowTheFold":true,"topImage":false,"internalRedirect":"https://www.dropsitenews.com/i/175546952?img=https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffab4e178-f1b0-478c-9ec3-f1fa7ab611de_1024x768.jpeg","isProcessing":false,"align":null,"offset":false}"
alt="" width="550" height="412.5"
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!DopY!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ffab4e178-f1b0-478c-9ec3-f1fa7ab611de_1024x768.jpeg"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;display: block;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;height: auto;margin-bottom: 0;width: auto !important;max-width: 100% !important;margin: 0 auto;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Mousa
Abu Marzouk sitting in a prison interview room
on April 11, 1997 at the Metropolitan
Correctional Center in New York where he was
being held by the US Immigration and
Naturalization Service as a suspected
terrorist. (Photo credit: JON LEVY/AFP via
Getty Images.)</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">During
the interview with Drop Site, Abu Marzouk
addressed the future of Hamas, saying that while
Hamas will commit to stepping down from power in
Gaza, Israeli claims that it will be wiped off the
map are fantasy.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cHamas
is no longer a small organization that any great
or small state can remove from Palestine,\u201d he
said. \u201cHamas is no longer [simply] an
organization. Hamas is now hope. Hamas is an idea.
So don\u2019t be surprised that most Arab and Muslim
masses chant for Hamas\u2026. Hamas has become an idea
present in the entire Islamic world, not only
present in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or
occupied Palestine or abroad\u2014it exists across the
whole Arab\u2011Islamic world.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">He
said that the U.S., Europe, and other nations
should recognize Hamas as part of the fabric of
Palestinian national identity and seek dialogue
and diplomacy in a process that will ensure an
independent state and enshrine the rights of
Palestinians to self determination.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cThe
best way to deal with Hamas is to understand it
and to deal with it responsibly,\u201d he said. \u201cHamas
still stands, does not raise the white flag, and
will not raise the white flag.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><em>Drop
Site News Middle East Research Fellow Jawa Ahmad
contributed to this report.</em></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><em>Hana
Elias edited the video of the interview.</em></p>
<div style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;">
<hr
style="margin: 32px 0;padding: 0;height: 1px;background: #e6e6e6;border: none;"></div>
<h1 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 2em;">Interview
With Senior Hamas Leader Mousa Abu Marzouk</h1>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;"><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/bb4189cd-ab00-4741-a657-e46b07a7218c?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: rgb(54,55,55);text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">WATCH THE INTERVIEW</a></h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><em>Full
transcript</em></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> We\u2019re joined now by Dr.
Mousa Abu Marzouk, who is a senior leader of the
Hamas movement, has been a member of the
movement from its very beginning and was the
first head of its political bureau. Dr. Abu
Marzouk, thank you so much for being with us at
Drop Site News.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> You\u2019re welcome.
Thank you very much.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> So the first question I
want to ask you is that the negotiations and
meetings are just beginning now in Egypt, and
Israel is making clear that it is not going to
agree to link withdrawal of Israeli forces, in
any real way, to the exchange of captives.
Donald Trump released a map, and it showed only
a very small redeployment of Israeli forces, and
the Israelis are saying they are not going to
agree to a full withdrawal at this stage. What
is your response, and how will the movement
approach that issue? Because these 48 Israeli
captives, being held by the movement, represent
the leverage in the negotiations that you have
right now. What\u2019s your response to this position
of Israel?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> We know that during
the period of dialogues, discussions, and
understandings, especially at this time, the
Israelis will place many obstacles in front of
it. We spoke clearly when we agreed on President
Trump\u2019s vision, thanking him for his initiative,
that the paragraph which concerns us is the one
we will address. Therefore, the first paragraph,
which deals with prisoner exchanges\u2014or the
withdrawal of Israeli forces, because it is
impossible to have a prisoner exchange while
Israeli forces are present in the area. There
must be a significant and sufficient Israeli
withdrawal for us to carry out this exchange.
Because without the withdrawal of Israeli
forces, it would be very difficult to carry out
this process.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
in previous operations, we would cease fire
permanently, aerial activity would stop, and there
were no Israeli forces in the area. This allowed
us to carry out exchange operations, which was
beneficial for the success and security of the
operation itself. Because we cannot guarantee that
there won\u2019t be any security breaches while Israeli
forces are present, especially leading to
prisoners being harmed. We want to preserve the
lives and security of the prisoners to the
greatest extent possible, in addition to the
safety of the people and those involved in the
exchange process. Therefore, it is difficult for
the negotiators or participants in the current
discussions to accept the presence of Israeli
forces in the area while carrying out prisoner
exchanges.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> If Israel is insisting
that it will not negotiate its withdrawal as a
part of the discussion of the exchange of
captives, will Hamas, under any circumstances,
agree to release Israel\u2019s captives If Israel
says we will not link withdrawal to it? Will the
movement under any circumstances agree to
release those Israeli captives if those are the
conditions?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> In my opinion, this
issue will be very difficult, as it will be
difficult to have a prisoner exchange without
the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the area.
The area of withdrawal may be a matter of
debate. However, they withdraw from all the
areas that\u2026 especially [the areas] where the
prisoners are located\u2014and we don\u2019t know exactly
where the prisoners are. Even the negotiators in
the current dialogues do not know their
locations. Therefore, they must withdraw from
populated areas. There cannot be an exchange [if
the forces remain], and the process will not
take place. This would mean that Israel does not
want Trump\u2019s plan to be implemented.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> Well, according to
Trump\u2019s plan, there are three separate stages of
withdrawal. The first would be that Israeli
forces pull back a little bit, and then there\u2019s
the exchange of prisoners and captives. And then
they say an international force will come in,
and then Israeli forces will pull back to a
second line, but only if an international force
is there. And then the third line is this buffer
zone that is supposed to encircle Gaza. And
there, there isn\u2019t a clear roadmap for the
Israelis ever leaving. So even in Trump\u2019s plan,
the full withdrawal of Israeli troops does not
have a structure like the deal from
January\u2014which the Israelis violated. So you\u2019re
facing a situation where there\u2019s a game sort of
being played by Trump with this proposal,
because even his withdrawal plan doesn\u2019t
envision a total withdrawal of Israeli troops
until some vague certification that Gaza doesn\u2019t
represent a \u201cthreat\u201d to Israel anymore.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> I want to tell you a
story that was shared with me by the chief
Egyptian negotiator, Major General Ahmed Abdel
Khaleq. He spoke with his Israeli intelligence
counterpart about the map in the American
proposal. He asked him, \u201cDo you understand
anything from this?\u201d The Israeli replied, \u201cNo.\u201d
Why? Because this map has no meaning. It is
hand-drawn, with no spaces, distances,
locations, or anything. While in previous
discussions, the text was clear: Israeli forces
should withdraw from residential areas and from
the Salah al-Din line by a certain number of
meters.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
Gaza Strip in some areas is only 4000 meters wide.
Therefore, it must be clear that if Israel wants
to disrupt the [negotiations], they can do so from
the first moment, through unclear and undefined
maps\u2014maps that are not drawn professionally,
meaning they weren\u2019t drawn by a cartographer or a
military expert. These maps were drawn by people
who are used to camel races. They don\u2019t know the
basics of map-making. You shouldn\u2019t send maps like
this; drawn like a rainbow.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Maps
must have defined distances in meters in the Gaza
Strip. Every space must be considered, because for
example, when we talk about the east of Rafah, the
width of the area is 14 kilometers, and when we
talk about areas like Netzarim and Nuseirat, we\u2019re
talking about 4.5 kilometers, or 4500 meters. This
is 14 kilometers, and this is 4.5 kilometers.
Therefore, the maps are drawn in an unprofessional
way. And if Israel wants to sabotage these
[negotiations], the key to their failure lies in
the maps, because they can say anything about
them. I mean the negotiations.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
I believe the first point now must be to define
the maps. As I told you, neither the Israelis nor
the Egyptians understood the maps at all.
Consequently, this will be the main obstacle. I
believe\u2014I\u2019m not on the negotiating team now
but\u2014that this issue will not move forward without
those maps being specified. The negotiators are
clear that [the Israeli forces] must withdraw
completely from residential areas. We cannot carry
out an exchange while Israeli forces are present,
as this is to ensure the security of the Israeli
prisoners themselves.</p>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;">Anticipating
Israeli Sabotage of a Deal</h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> As you know, the
Israelis are masters of violating ceasefire
agreements, not just with Palestinians, but also
we see in Lebanon. There was supposedly a
ceasefire in Lebanon, and the Israelis are
violating it almost every single day and
continuing to bomb Lebanon. The resistance\u2014the
Palestinian resistance\u2014is taking a big risk, if
you hand over all of the Israeli captives in one
batch. What guarantees are you looking for that
Israel doesn\u2019t just get all of its prisoners
back, and then immediately resume the genocide
again after you hand them all their prisoners?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk: </strong><span>You are absolutely
right, and I think there is a risk. Israel does
not honor signed agreements nor respect
commitments. Of course, this was very clear in
the targeting of the negotiating delegation in
Qatar. A country that respects its commitments
and obligations would never target the people it
is negotiating with for assassination,
especially when it needs those negotiators. The
same happened in Lebanon, and it is happening
now. It also is happening now in Syria\u2014there are
the 1974 understandings about disengagement
zones with Syria\u2014yet Israel still respects
nothing.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">This
is a risk, but we trusted President Trump to be
the guarantor of all the commitments made.
President Trump acted when he halted a war with
Iran\u2014then [Netanyahu] wanted to resume it and sent
planes to strike targets in Iran. President Trump
recalled those planes while they were en route to
strike targets in Iran. So we know that President
Trump is capable of fulfilling his commitments and
honoring his pledges, and he is the primary
guarantor of everything he says. And he stated
clearly that the war would stop, the Israeli army
would withdraw in three stages, and then a
prisoner exchange would take place. Therefore,
these guarantees are sufficient for us to say that
President Trump has committed to these matters,
allowing us to move forward in this direction. Had
there been no commitment from the American
president, we would never have agreed to take the
risk, because we do not trust Netanyahu or his
extremist right\u2011wing team in the current Israeli
government. We have seen many previous Israeli
governments and how they often honored their
words. However, I do not see this government as
being committed to anything.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
I say, when President Trump said he wanted the
prisoners released all at once\u2014yes, it is possible
the prisoners will be released over a defined
period of time, because doing it all at once would
be difficult. But there will remain a larger
number of dead. The Israeli dead are more than\u2026We
are talking about at least 28. These are in areas
where Israeli forces are currently present.
Therefore, they must withdraw, and we will need
time to search for them. Frankly, we will also
seek the help of the Red Cross and many other
resources, because the Israeli army has altered
the landmarks of the Gaza Strip through
destruction, digging, searching for tunnels, and
the destruction of all existing cemeteries. I am
one of those people whose parents were buried in a
cemetery that now lies under the road that was
paved\u2014the Philadelphia line. The entire cemetery
is beneath that line. Israel has completely
changed the landmarks of cemeteries. Consequently,
there are dead in tunnels, people buried, and
others under rubble. This is a very difficult
matter and will take time and may take months.
They also want their dead returned. So I do not
think this will be something that will be resolved
in a few days.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>You know what may be a
little bit different in this agreement versus
the January ceasefire agreement or the earlier
temporary truces where there were captives
exchanged, is that Trump now has all of these
Arab and Islamic countries that are very
involved right now. But, Dr. Abu Marzouk, we\u2019ve
watched for two years as no Arab country or
Islamic country except Iran, Hezbollah in
Lebanon and Ansar Allah in Yemen have dared to
use any military force against Israel. All of
these countries have stood on the side and
watched the genocide of the Palestinian people
in Gaza. And the most they\u2019ve done is issue a
strong statement. Even when Qatar was bombed in
an attempt to kill the Hamas senior leadership,
no Arab country launched a missile at Israel.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">If
Israel violates this agreement with the
Palestinians and resumes the genocide, how can you
trust that these Arab countries will do anything
other than issue a press release condemning it? In
other words, you have these countries that you\u2019ve
been dealing with in mediation, and they\u2019re giving
you assurances that they\u2019re going to make sure
that Trump and Israel keep the agreement. But
they\u2019ve watched a genocide for two years and
they\u2019ve done nothing to stop it. So how can you
trust even those countries that are involved with
this process?</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> I do not want to
talk about the extent of Arab and Muslim support
or abandonment of the battle in the Gaza Strip.
But the Arab and Islamic position recently has
been aimed towards putting heavy pressure on the
U.S. administration to stop the genocide in
Gaza.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">If
I want to speak historically, remember after the
collapse of the Soviet Union and the breakup of
Yugoslavia into Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and
Bosnia\u2014you\u2019re talking about several new states. In
the war between the Serbs and Croats and the
Muslims in Bosnia, the war lasted three years.
What stopped it was the intervention of Arabs and
Muslims before Europe, saying that if things
stayed as they were we would export weapons and
help the Muslims in Bosnia to stop the
extermination. Then the Americans intervened at
that time and produced the Dayton Agreement, if I
recall correctly, dividing Bosnia into three
entities and appointing a governor.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">I
believe that in stopping the genocide, there is a
responsibility on the Arabs and Muslims. As for
them not fighting Israel\u2014I\u2019ll speak frankly here.
When the Arabs became friends with America,
especially in Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Qatar,
Jordan\u2014and now Syria is on the way\u2014the main
weapons of those armies became American weapons.
American weapons are also present in Israel. It
makes no sense for American weapons to face
American weapons. So the prospect of wars in the
region that pit those states against Israel
becomes difficult. The evidence for that is what
happened in Qatar. When Iran struck the U.S. base
in Qatar with missiles, Qatari air defenses were
able to intercept them. But when F\u201115s entered
Qatari airspace and struck the negotiating
delegation, Qatari defenses could not engage
American aircraft because they are friendly
planes. So how do you expect the Egyptian army to
fight the Israeli army when both use weapons that
won\u2019t engage one another?</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore
I tell you the Arabs will not intervene
militarily, because all their weapons in Jordan,
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Lebanon and Egypt are
American. How do you fight American weapons with
American weapons? So a real responsibility falls
on America\u2014it must act in this regard. It cannot
let Israel control the whole region like this\u2014that
cannot happen. When Egyptian weapons were Russian,
they were able to wage the 1973 war. When Russian
weapons were present in places like Iraq, they
were able to deter. But now the weapons are
American. How can these U.S.-friendly states that
possess American weapons confront Israeli
aggression when their defenses cannot engage
Israeli aircraft? Here a great responsibility lies
with the United States: to protect its allies and
friends in the region, or the Arabs will find
another path.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">I
think the Pakistan lesson for America on the world
map is clear: when the U.S. failed to resolve the
problem between India and Pakistan and placed
restrictions on Pakistan, Pakistan turned to
China. It turned out China has weapons that
surpass the American or Russian weapons that India
had. Pakistan ended the battle within hours with
Chinese air power and air defenses. Consequently,
the Arabs will find themselves looking for a third
option. I say Turkey at one stage turned to Russia
and imported the S\u2011400 so it would have
respectable air defenses. When the United States
is unable to supply its allies with what they need
to defend themselves, the picture changes.
Therefore America must pay attention and take
responsibility in this regard. It must compel
Israel to a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.</p>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;">Hamas\u2019s
View of Trump</h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> Well, you were educated
in the United States. You lived in the United
States for quite a long time. I want to get your
assessment of Donald Trump as a president, but
also how the Hamas movement has viewed the
difference in dealing with Trump versus dealing
with Joe Biden.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> Dealing with Trump
is dealing with a person. Meaning, Trump\u2019s ego
is very high. He likes to be unique and receive
a lot of praise. He is very eager for the Nobel
Peace Prize, and therefore he wants the problem
solved today or tomorrow so that the vote on
Friday will be in his favor for receiving the
Nobel Peace Prize. I advised him on Al Jazeera
the day before yesterday, I told him, \u201cIf you
want the Nobel Prize, don\u2019t bring Netanyahu with
you. Because Netanyahu is a man wanted by
international justice, Netanyahu is a war
criminal, and Netanyahu will ruin your chances
of getting the Nobel. Just keep Netanyahu away
and tie him down.\u201d</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Moreover,
he does not adhere to the rules. The rules that
America established after World War II for it to
be the country that leads the world towards
American principles. I believe that today Trump
has changed many of these rules and no longer
respects many of the existing norms. No
international law, no bilateral agreements, no
international agreements, no United Nations and
its charter. He does not respect the rules on
which this system was built, but has not provided
an alternative. Therefore, it is difficult to
predict what he will do. But we have to deal with
this reality, and I believe it is not just a
problem for me alone\u2014it is also a problem for
Netanyahu and his team. It also creates a dilemma
for him. That\u2019s why when Netanyahu wanted to
object to the agreement, [Trump] said, \u201cyou are
bound by it. Take it as it is,\u201d and he bound him
to it. He can bind Netanyahu to the vision he
sees, especially in the first stage, which is the
stage of Israeli forces withdrawing, ending the
war, providing aid to the Palestinian people, and
releasing prisoners.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Does the Hamas movement
and your leadership, do you assess right now
that you believe Trump actually wants to end
this war and that he is willing to essentially
order Netanyahu to stop it? Because Trump is the
only person in the world that can stop Netanyahu
at this point. Do you think\u2014do you really
believe that he wants this war to end?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> Even if I assume
that Netanyahu wants to continue the war for
other goals related to the Palestinian people
and their forced displacement and other similar
matters, I believe that the whole world is now
against the war. I think the statistics in
American society, specifically within the
Republican Party or among the Jews in the United
States, generally show that most of them want
the war to stop. I believe that Trump cannot
stand with Netanyahu in opposition to the
Republican Party, Jews in America, and the
entire world. Because, is there anyone in the
world today standing with Netanyahu in
continuing the war?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
war in Lebanon lasted two months, the war in Syria
lasted two days after Assad\u2019s collapse, the war in
Iran lasted two weeks. Today, we will have been in
the war for two years. There has never been in
history an open war, a genocide broadcast on
television like this war, a war in which
starvation is used as a weapon, the killing of
children is used as a weapon, and the blocking of
medicine is used as a weapon. Is it possible that
Trump is devoid of humanity to this extent? Is
that possible? I find it highly unlikely that
Netanyahu\u2014I mean Trump\u2014would accept the war to
continue.</p>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;">Hamas\u2019s
Fight to Free Palestinian Prisoners</h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>I want to ask you about
the issue of Palestinian captives being held by
Israel. We understand that as many as 15,000
Palestinians are now being held in Israeli
jails, military camps, administrative detention,
including many women and children. And that
thousands of Palestinians, maybe 4,000 or more,
were taken from Gaza since October 7. And in
Trump\u2019s plan, in return for returning the 48
Israelis\u201428 deceased and 20 living\u2014that 250
Palestinians currently serving life sentences in
Israel and 1,700 Palestinians from Gaza,
including all of the women and children, would
be freed in this exchange deal. Now, in previous
negotiations, Hamas was also negotiating to try
to get more of those Palestinians taken from
Gaza after October 7th freed, as well as
prisoners who were serving long sentences but
not life sentences. This deal says 250 life
sentence prisoners. Are these numbers acceptable
to Hamas right now in these negotiations, or do
you want to see more Palestinians freed as part
of this negotiation?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> I don\u2019t think that
when President Trump set those numbers he meant
that those exact figures are how many
Palestinians will be released in exchange. I
believe he doesn\u2019t even know how many Israeli
prisoners are still alive. Nor do we\u2014speaking
for myself, I don\u2019t know either. I don\u2019t know
the number of [Israelis] deceased in Gaza, I
don\u2019t know how many. He doesn\u2019t know how many
prisoners are held by Hamas versus others, nor
the number of Israeli dead held by Hamas versus
others. These are all estimated, undefined
numbers. Therefore this issue must have
criteria, dates, and details, and I think this
is one of the items that should be discussed in
the first phase.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>There were reports this
week that Netanyahu has told Ben Gvir and others
that under no circumstances will he free Marwan
Barghouti, Ahmed Sa\u2019adat, Abdullah Barghouti,
and other very well known Palestinian political
prisoners. I know that in each of these rounds,
Marwan Barghouti, Ahmed Sa\u2019adat, Abdullah
Barghouti have always been a demand of the
Palestinian resistance in these negotiations. Do
you believe you can achieve the freedom of
Marwan Barghouti, Ahmed Sa\u2019adat and Abdullah
Barghouti?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> Believe me, these
individuals will be at the top of the priorities
in the current talks. This is because they are a
necessity for Palestinian unity and solidarity,
and for their history and symbolism in the
struggle. They must be among the prisoners to be
released. But in the past we included them in
every prisoner exchange, and they always refused
to release those leaders. I don\u2019t know about
this matter, and I cannot discuss it because
anything related to prisoner exchanges is open
to negotiation, meaning it will be part of the
discussions at present. Also, both parties must
agree to anything to reach an agreement. One
side can\u2019t unilaterally decide to release a
certain number without an agreement\u2014there must
be one. It will also be a top priority for us
that these leaders are released.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>There were reports in
earlier negotiations that there were officials
from the Palestinian Authority, working under
Mahmoud Abbas, who told the mediators that they
did not want Marwan Barghouti freed. Are these
reports true that the Palestinian Authority, or
anyone representing it, interfered to try to
stop Marwan Barghouti from being released in
earlier exchange deals?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> If the one saying
this\u2026 I haven\u2019t heard [anything official], I\u2019ve
heard analyses. But I don\u2019t think anyone from
Fatah would officially dare to say such a thing.
Marwan Barghouti, in all opinion polls, is
number one\u2014number one for the Palestinian
presidency, number one in popularity, number one
if there were elections. So I don\u2019t think anyone
would officially say, \u201cwe don\u2019t want to release
Marwan Barghouti from detention.\u201d But as an
analysis based on people\u2019s opinions\u2014yes, there
could be such a view.</span></p>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;">On
Disarmament</h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> I want to ask you, I\u2019m
going to ask you also a couple of historical
questions because you\u2019ve been a leader in this
movement for so long. But just one brief
question about the current negotiations. This
issue of disarmament. You know, the Israelis
focus on this a lot and they, if you listen to
the Israelis, you would think that Hamas has
tanks and aircraft and massive artillery, when
the reality is that with the exception of the
rockets, most of the weapons in the hands of the
resistance are manufactured in Gaza. They\u2019re
small arms, including on October 7th in
Operation Al Aqsa Flood, these were mostly small
weapons that were used, not big conventional
tanks or anything like this. But they\u2019re making
this the issue, and in a way it\u2019s a proxy issue
because they want the Palestinians to surrender.
That\u2019s clear.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">But
on this issue of the weapons, how can Hamas
navigate this? Because the Israelis are demanding
disarmament, but they know very well that Hamas,
that Qassam Brigades and Saraya Al Quds, they have
homemade weapons. How are you going to be able to
navigate this? Are you, is there some openness to
saying, \u201cOkay, we\u2019ll give you these weapons?\u201d I
know that the resistance has said it\u2019s a red line,
\u201cWe will not accept disarmament. This is about the
survival of Palestine and the rights of self
defense and self determination.\u201d But is there some
tactical configuration that you\u2019ll entertain to
address this issue, if you understand what I mean?</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk: </strong><span>First, anything
that is up for discussion or negotiation now in
Sharm El-Sheikh is difficult to speak about
publicly in the media from any leadership level.
However, I am very surprised at those who keep
raising the issue of disarming Hamas. The
Israelis themselves said they eliminated most of
the Qassam brigades in Gaza\u2014in the north, in
Khan Younis, and in Rafah\u2014and that there is
essentially no one left from Qassam Brigades.
President Trump said 25,000 members of Qassam
were killed, and their numbers are roughly of
that order. Israel also recently announced that
most of Hamas\u2019s military capabilities were
destroyed\u2014they said 90% of Hamas\u2019s capabilities
were wiped out. So if they destroyed 90% of
Hamas\u2019s military capabilities and killed most of
Qassam\u2019s fighters, as President Trump says,
whose weapons are you going to disarm and where
are the weapons you claim you\u2019ll remove when you
already destroyed them?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Frankly,
statements of this kind are often rhetoric that
does not reflect reality\u2014rather, the purpose of
them is to accept defeat in the battle. If you
fought for two years against a resistance movement
and still could not decisively end it, is it
possible that you will get what you want at the
negotiating table on this issue? I think that is
very difficult. Therefore they need to lower their
expectations a lot in this regard. Also, we are
talking about the future and shaping it. Weapons
may come and go, but the commitments and adherence
to them are what must be honored and discussed. If
you have a pledge from a party that it will not
use weapons, or that it is under a truce or a
ceasefire, that should, without doubt, be more
important than searching how many rifles Hamas has
or what missiles or \u201cnuclear bombs\u201d it might
possess. We don\u2019t even have\u2026 What weapons do we
have to be talking about this at such level?</p>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;">Responding
to Trump While Preserving the Right to
Self-determination</h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>When Hamas responded to
President Trump, it did so after consulting with
a wide range of Palestinian political parties
and factions and leaders, as well as the ground
leaders inside of Gaza. And your response was
split into two basic sections. One was saying
that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a right or a
mandate to negotiate the end of the war because
they\u2019re holding the captives and they\u2019re
fighting. But the other was about Palestinian
national questions. And so your statement was
quite crafty because it didn\u2019t reject Trump, but
it said you need to negotiate with all
Palestinians. Explain that strategy that you
opted for in responding to Trump, sort of
saying, \u201cYes, the resistance can negotiate these
issues about the captives, the withdrawal and a
ceasefire, but these other issues are a national
question.\u201d Talk about that strategy.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> This strategy began
when we met the mediators and they presented the
proposal. I told them right away that a large
part of President Trump\u2019s proposal is something
Hamas is not authorized to agree to. We are not
mandated to decide the Palestinian people\u2019s
future. There are factions, civil society
forces, the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, and
the entire people who will determine their
future, choose their leadership, and decide how
they position themselves geographically and
politically. We are not authorized to do that,
so we proposed that we speak only for what we do
have [authority over]. And what we do not have
[authority over] and cannot speak on
unilaterally, we will deal responsibly with.
From that came the idea of having the response
on two aspects: one aspect concerns the movement
of Hamas\u2014issues tied to the fighting, prisoners,
aid, withdrawal from Gaza, and all those
substantive issues related to Hamas.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
other aspect of our strategy is dealing with the
whole Palestinian homeland: the factions, Fatah,
the Popular Front, all factions, the Palestinian
Authority, and the PLO\u2014and it\u2019s acceptable for the
PLO to be the umbrella, we have no problem with
that. But all Palestinians must be the ones to
address all issues concerning the future of the
Gaza Strip.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">For
example, when we discussed Gaza\u2019s future, we
Palestinians agreed there should be an independent
technocratic committee, non-partisan and
competent, that would come to govern Gaza. And
they would be from Gaza itself, with their primary
affiliation to the Palestinian Authority. We
agreed to that. We have no problem with some of
our Palestinian brothers from any political
direction being the ones on the ground in Gaza the
day after.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
this strategy was developed to enable us to unite
the Palestinian homeland so it can decide Gaza\u2019s
future: international emergency forces, areas, the
\u201cbuffer zone\u201d\u2014all of this must be discussed
because it belongs to all Palestinians, not just
to Hamas. That is how the idea emerged. The first
aspect\u2014which President Trump announced\u2014is
withdrawal and an end to the war in exchange for
the prisoners. The second aspect is how we build
all civil institutions and the political community
that exist in Gaza.</p>
<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;">
<table class="image-wrapper" width="100%"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
data-component-name="Image2ToDOMStatic"
style="mso-padding-alt: 1em 0 1.6em;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
<td class="content" align="left"
width="1456" style="text-align: center;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/db54f5df-adf9-4692-8225-9efbfc51adde?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="position: relative;flex-direction: column;align-items: center;padding: 0;width: auto;height: auto;border: none;text-decoration: none;display: block;margin: 0;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
class="wide-image"
data-attrs="{"src":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/3483c986-07cd-462d-988c-e2cedfef20f2_2835x1883.jpeg","srcNoWatermark":null,"fullscreen":null,"imageSize":null,"height":967,"width":1456,"resizeWidth":null,"bytes":591624,"alt":null,"title":null,"type":"image/jpeg","href":null,"belowTheFold":true,"topImage":false,"internalRedirect":"https://www.dropsitenews.com/i/175546952?img=https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3483c986-07cd-462d-988c-e2cedfef20f2_2835x1883.jpeg","isProcessing":false,"align":null,"offset":false}"
alt="" width="550"
height="365.2815934065934"
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!fMuH!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3483c986-07cd-462d-988c-e2cedfef20f2_2835x1883.jpeg"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;display: block;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;height: auto;margin-bottom: 0;width: auto !important;max-width: 100% !important;margin: 0 auto;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Mousa
Abu Marzouk, left, speaks alongside Hamas
leader Ismail Haniyeh during a visit with
families of Hamas officials killed by Israel
in Gaza, May 2, 2014. Haniyeh was assassinated
by Israel in Tehran, Iran in July 2024. (Photo
by Mohammed Talatene/Anadolu Agency/Getty
Images)</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;">The
Future of Hamas and the Legacy of October 7th</h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>How do you see the
future of Hamas? You know, of course Netanyahu
says, oh, he\u2019s going to destroy Hamas. And, and
often in the American media, Hamas is written
about as though it\u2019s almost like a foreign body
that came into Palestine and needs to just go
home. But the reality is that and you know, you
were in Hamas from the very beginning of the
movement. Hamas is part of the fabric of
Palestinian society. And yes, it\u2019s a resistance
movement, but it also was a governing authority
for two decades in Gaza. And I\u2019m wondering, even
though Hamas is saying that it is willing to
relinquish governance of Gaza, what is the
future of Hamas in your view, Dr. Abu Marzouk?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> If you look at the
last elections, Hamas won the majority, nearly
66 seats out of 120 or 130 seats. This means
Hamas won most of the seats in the legislative
council, while the other factions, including
Fatah, won fewer than 34 seats. Hamas is no
longer a small organization that any great or
small state can remove from Palestine. Hamas is
present in the West Bank\u2014it is the strongest
organization there\u2014it exists abroad, everywhere,
inside in the \u201948 territories. Hamas is
everywhere\u2014no one can cancel its existence. But
Hamas is no longer [simply] an organization.
Hamas is now hope. Hamas is an idea. So don\u2019t be
surprised that most Arab and Muslim masses chant
for Hamas.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Today,
when the U.S. decided to pursue Hamas financially
and Arab countries cut their aid to Hamas, they
still couldn\u2019t erase its presence. You are talking
about more than a billion Muslims who see Hamas as
hope for them, because Hamas defends the holiest
sanctities of Muslims\u2014al\u2011Aqsa Mosque. For every
Muslim, Hamas is seen as defending al\u2011Aqsa.
Therefore, Hamas has become an idea that exists
across this wide swath of Arabs and Muslims.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">When
I was imprisoned in Manhattan, New York, I used to
receive mail from across the Islamic world\u2014I was
then head of the political bureau. I would get a
huge mail bag every day with more than 300
letters. Even the warden was surprised, \u201cWho is
this receiving 300 letters every day?\u201d Letters
from Russia, Canada, Australia, and throughout the
Islamic world. The FBI began to investigate: \u201cIf
we keep him detained, what will happen to
Americans?\u201d They conducted hundreds of interviews
of people in different parts of the Islamic world,
asking \u201cdo you know so\u2011and\u2011so? Do you know Mousa
Abu Marzouk?\u201d \u201cIf he is arrested or handed over to
Israel, what will your reaction be?\u201d They were
talking about a person, not about Hamas as a
movement, across the entire Arab and Islamic
world\u2014and even across larger communities in the
U.S., Canada, Australia, and Britain.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">So
you are talking about Hamas that defends the
holiest sanctities of Muslims\u2014al\u2011Aqsa Mosque.
Hamas that defends the most sacred land\u2014Palestine.
Hamas has become an idea present in the entire
Islamic world, not only present in the Gaza Strip
or the West Bank or occupied Palestine or
abroad\u2014it exists across the whole Arab\u2011Islamic
world. What are they talking about? Hamas is not
al\u2011Qaeda. Al\u2011Qaeda was created by U.S.
intelligence for other purposes, but Hamas is a
different creation. A different creation\u2014a
creation of the conscience of all Muslims.
Therefore, Hamas is not like any other Palestinian
organization either. The best way to deal with
Hamas is to understand it and to deal with it
responsibly.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Otherwise,
look at what you see across the world today and
the steadfastness you have witnessed for two years
while Israel fights\u2014is Israel really fighting
Hamas? Think a little when you talk about Hamas as
an armed organization like any other Palestinian
organization. Israel has failed to eliminate this
organization in two years of war. It has killed
more than 100,000 people and wounded more than
150,000 or 200,000\u2014it has killed over 12% of the
Palestinian people. And Hamas still stands, does
not raise the white flag, and will not raise the
white flag. Why? Is there a people who embrace a
movement to this extent while considering it
something foreign?</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
political understanding about the future and
security with Hamas is a thousand times better
than current attempts to isolate Hamas. Isolating
Hamas is impossible. Hamas is not just the names
known to Israeli intelligence or the Shin
Bet\u2014those people can be eliminated and no one
remains of them, but Hamas is an idea planted in
the entire Palestinian people. Do you want to
expel the entire Palestinian people, whether in
the West Bank, Gaza, or abroad? I think that\u2019s
impossible. So the best approach is to reach an
understanding with Hamas regarding security,
safety, and Palestinian rights.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> Last question for you,
Dr. Abu Marzouk. This week there\u2019s going to be a
lot of focus on the two year anniversary of
October 7th. And much of the western media
coverage is going to be focused on what took
place in Israel on October 7th. And I wanted to
ask you, what you think the legacy or the impact
of Operation Al Aqsa Flood? What you think the
impact of those operations carried out by the
Palestinian resistance groups against Israel two
years ago? How is history going to view
Operation Al Aqsa Flood and what was its impact?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk: </strong><span>This is a big
question. There are always events that are huge
and have a massive impact, but their strategic
implications are small. And sometimes a small
event can have huge strategic implications. For
example, when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and
destroyed the U.S. fleet. The operation was
obviously, to the Japanese, well-planned. But
strategically, Japan lost the war because it
brought America into the conflict.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Today,
in this war, Israel exploited this small, limited
war in the Gaza Strip to fight the Palestinian
people and displace them, pursuing goals that are
far-reaching and connected to the Zionist project
itself. Israel used tools without restraint such
as genocide, starvation, random killings,
destruction, and collective punishment\u2014violating
every law that humanity has civilly developed over
time. In reality, Israel has lost its global
support, which it once had in abundance.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
second point is the Israeli narrative\u2014meaning,
Israel was the solution to the Jewish problem in
Europe, and the sympathy came because of European
crimes against Jews and that the Zionist movement
solved the Jewish problem. Israel received immense
sympathy from Europe and the United States. Today,
what Israel has done to the Palestinian people has
completely undermined this idea: the notion of
victimhood, the idea of fighting anti-Semitism,
and the moral sympathy for Israel. Now, Israel is
exposed to pressure, to the International Criminal
Court, to boycotts, and massive protests in the
West. Israel once gained support for its narrative
from the people and governments of the West.
Today, governments are hesitant, and the people
all support the Palestinian cause.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">This
shift in narrative is the creation of Netanyahu.
This is what Netanyahu has made, not what was made
on [October 7th]. It is a reaction, a desire for
revenge, a desire to kill the other\u2014the
Palestinian people. Netanyahu is the one who
created this situation, while [October 7th] is a
narrative that was not as Netanyahu and his
Israeli team have portrayed it to justify the
killing of the Palestinian people. [October 7th]
was a group of no more than 1,200 to 1,500 Qassam
fighters who fought the Gaza Brigade. The Gaza
Brigade collapsed, and these fighters had no
choice but to rush into the frontline settlements.
In these settlements, they barricaded themselves,
and then the Israeli army came. They tried to save
themselves by confining [Israeli] civilians to
escape and return to Gaza. They were bombed by
planes and artillery, and many were killed. The
people who died at the music concert were killed
by planes and tanks, not by the 1,500 men who
entered with light weapons. Light weapons, limited
cars, and gliders that were as if a joke. They
couldn\u2019t have killed so many, as they had no
ammunition or weapons [to cause such casualties].
This number was killed [by Israel] and was proven
by Israeli accounts.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Now,
they\u2019ve come up with different images, claiming
there was rape. This is not true. Even if there
were some testimonies here and there, if you
examined them\u2014and this is what we asked. Just
examine the cases, man! Let a neutral team come
and say that there was one rape case. I\u2019m telling
you with certainty, there wasn\u2019t. And they claim
there were beheadings and such. Where are the
beheadings? And burning children? These are lies
they\u2019ve manufactured and turned into a narrative
similar to the Holocaust narrative. They now say
Hamas created a Holocaust on October 7th, but this
is not true. I tell you, the operation was much
simpler than that. There is no way that an
operation consisting of 1,500 men could have
launched to destroy Israel and for them to
consider it an existential war. Let people think
for a moment. Is it possible that 1,500 people who
entered were planning an existential war against
Israel? This was a movement for the liberation of
prisoners. That\u2019s the whole story.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
prisoners hold immense value for the Palestinian
people. Therefore, it is impossible for [Marwan]
Barghouti to spend his entire life in prison,
having fought for his people, while people do
nothing to save his life. This is October 7th. As
for what followed, it is very clear that Israel
cannot defend itself. That\u2019s why it called upon
the U.S., Britain, and France to defend it\u2014against
Iranian missiles as an example. The entire West
came with its tanks and fleets to help Israel.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Do
you know that October 7th, because of the blind
stance taken by the Western countries, was a huge
opportunity for major strategic changes in the
entire region? The Russia-Ukraine war, the
strategic shift that occurred in favor of Russia,
because the entire West, instead of supporting
Ukraine, ended up supporting Israel, causing
Ukraine to lose the battle. America\u2019s strategy was
to counter the expansion of China, and that\u2019s why
China was very happy for two reasons. It was happy
with America\u2019s strategic mindset when it made bin
Laden the central enemy, chasing him everywhere,
while China was growing and thriving, producing
now what the U.S. is not able to produce. Then,
after bin Laden, America adopted ISIS, which it
created, as the central war target, and let China
grow and flourish.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Now,
America\u2019s plan was to focus on China once
everything was done, but suddenly, all of this
shifted to focusing on protecting Israel. From
whom? From whom are they protecting Israel? All
the countries surrounding Israel are allies. The
landscape doesn\u2019t allow for the destruction of
Israel\u2014the geographical landscape. Neither Jordan
nor Egypt would allow the destruction of Israel.
So, how about you? You changed your entire policy
and redirected all your strategic resources to
support Israel. Consequently, China is among the
happiest with this war, and Russia is also among
the happiest. The U.S. lost strategically for the
support of one madman named Netanyahu. This is
October 7th.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill:</strong><span> Just briefly, what\u2019s
your message to President Trump and the American
people right now?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Mousa
Abu Marzouk:</strong><span> I have one sentence
to say to President Trump: Thank you for your
efforts, and for your promise to stop the war
and release the prisoners. We are committed to
it. Just stop the war. Stopping the war means a
complete withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. I want
Trump to fulfill his pledge and promise.</span></p>
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