[News] Venezuela - Account of a Day with Nicolas Maduro
Anti-Imperialist News
news at freedomarchives.org
Fri Sep 27 18:02:28 EDT 2013
Account of a Day with Nicolas Maduro
By Nicolas Maduro, Víctor Ríos, Miguel Riera, September 26th 2013
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10050
*Very little is known about Nicolas Maduro, president of the
Bo**livarian Republic of Venezuela, in Spain. [There's] scarcely four
lines, mainly contributed by the mass media which is hostile to the
revolutionary process. El Viejo Topo wanted to get to know him, and the
Venezuelan president accepted the interview without any hassles.*
*But the invitation from Maduro wasn't limited to just an interview.
Immersed in what has been baptised the Street Government, the president
has been visiting, over the last one hundred days of his government, all
the nooks and crannies of his country. Practically every day he has
visited a different place, accompanied by some minister, taking note of
the principle problems in the area, talking with people, approving
projects. One could say that during this period the government of
Venezuela has had a somewhat itinerant character -- something surprising
for us, as we're used to a Spanish president who has so little contact
with the people that he talks to the press through a plasma screen,
hiding his physical presence from the mortal journalists.*
*Well then, the president invited a team from El Viejo Topo to accompany
him during one of these work days, and in that way, as that day
progressed, the interview would be held. It was a unique chance to
observe up close the Venezuelan head of state.*
*So on 20 July El Viejo Topo went early to the Caracas airport where the
presidential airplane was waiting. After a 25 minute flight we landed at
the San Carlos airport, capital of plains state of Cojedes. A lot of
people were at the airport and in the neighbouring streets waiting to
see Maduro. Owing to the tinted windows of the cars that transported us,
many of them must have thought that the president was in one of them, so
we were greeting warmly by the population that was waiting for the
procession.*
*Forty-five minutes later the small parade entered a military base. Two
helicopters flew over the area. A military band got into position: the
president was heading towards them.*
*We'll keep the story short: After the military ceremony, the procession
headed towards a small platform where many soldiers and their families,
over two hundred, were already seated. We were going to attend a
promotion ceremony for a handful of generals as well as the handing over
of banners to various military regions. After that, the speech.*
*Nicolas Maduro says what he means to say. Bread is bread and wine is
wine. No beating about the bush. Even though it wasn't the main topic,
Maduro talked about Spain; Spain devastated by corruption which has
nested itself in a good part of the political class, and which has been
(and still is?) an accomplice of the Venezuelan right-wing fascist coup
plotters. He cites unemployment and highlights how intolerable it is
that 55% of Spanish youth can't find work. It's not even necessary to
say that Topo agrees with him.*
*Around the big tent where we are the Armed Forces have set up a small
**exhibition of weaponry. Tanks, cannons, a range of military stuff. The
president entertains himself in each area; taking his time, he converses
with the troops and officials. The morning stretches out.*
***So much time standing up, for the Topo, our strength flounders. But
everyone else doesn't seem to be tired. Suddenly, very quickly, Maduro
and a group of soldiers enter a big campaign tent. Could this be the
Military Street Government? It seems there are issues to resolve. After
a few hours, soldiers appear with a bit of food. It starts to rain like
crazy; stick of rain as they call it here. In the stall the president,
the defence minister, the president of the National Assembly, and a
group of the military continue their debates. Suddenly, Maduro talks to
us. It's getting late, and the interview is about to start. "How shall
we do it?" he says. He thinks about it for a few seconds, and continues;
"Come with me, let's get in the car."*
*Everything happens in a hurry. Almost running, we get to the vehicles.
Someone points to the car we should get in to. We do it, one in front,
two in the back. There's no driver. He appears: it's Nicolas Maduro. The
actual president drives the car. For a few seconds we can't help feeling
a little bewildered. One of us jokes about the category of driver. *
*The surprises continue: Maduro doesn't treat us like journalists or
strangers, he treats us like companions. *
*The president asks us if we have the recorder ready. "Go ahead, ask,"
he says, while he drives the car. It's obvious it's not going to be a
conventional interview, one of those where the interviewer measures
their questions and the person being interviewed avoids answering
completely. From there the tone of our whole conversation is colloquial,
polite, not at all haughty. And we decide to start.*
*Someone had told us that his [Maduro's] social and political commitment
started when he was very young, so we ask him about his first years.
Without taking his eyes off the road, the president responds.*
I was born and grew up in the Caracas of the 1960s and '70s. I was
raised in a barrio, in the area where the Central University of
Venezuela is. In those years there was a big social and political
upheaval, big struggles arose, focused above all in a powerful student,
university, and high school movement. I remember, being still quite
small, the raids on the Central University. Because I was born and grew
up in front of the San Pedro church, in a middle class, working-class
community. There, one lived practically in a state of siege. Sometimes
we couldn't leave the house all week, they kept us sheltered from the
shootings that broke out in the storming on the university. I suppose
that these memories, of a small boy, are from the time of Raul Leoni,
who governed the country from 1964 to 69. Leoni raided the university
with the Bolivar battalion, with the army. Later there was another raid
which I recall well enough, in 1970, under the government of Rafael
Caldera, the leader of Christian democracy. He entered the Central
University and he closed it, because a process of university renewal was
being damaged, a little along the protest lines of Cordoba and the
French May...
[/In 1918 Cordoba was the epicentre of a reformist movement know as the
university reform, which later extended to the rest of the universities
in Argentina, a large part of the Americas, and Spain/]
...in Venezuela this renewal the university students were going for in
69, 70, was strangled in blood. I remember this raid very well because I
was already eight years old, and there was a youth on the block, called
Pedro, who we later called Pedro the strange, who was beaten up a lot by
the police in front of us, they hit the youth in the head, and him, they
left him mentally disturbed, somewhat crazy. We called him Pedro the
strange because he behaved strangely, a little crazy. I remember this
part of my infancy, which was always connected with repression,
disturbances. My father was a left-wing man; he was an active member of
the party Democratic Action (AD). He held a left-wing, critical
position. Actually, later in 1967 he participated in the founding of the
Electoral Movement of the People (MEP), with a leader who came from
social democracy, called Luis Beltran Prieto Figueroa, a teacher. They
stole the primary elections for the presidential candidacy in Democratic
Action from the teacher Prieto and after that he had to find his own
political force. I'm sure that the presidential elections were stolen
from him. He didn't have any sort of machinery to be able to back up the
votes, and the Venezuelan electoral system was very fraudulent. The
votes that were emitted and places in the voting boxes were worthless,
what had worth was what was put in the final vote count [/Acta / in
Spanish]. It's what's called /Acta/ kills votes. They completely changed
the results.
So we might say that those were the years that marked my childhood. When
the 70s arrived I began to study in high school. In the first year
[translator: ie 7^th grade], almost the first day of class, I started to
participate in the Student United Front of the Urbaneja Achelpohl
School. And from there I was a member of a revolutionary organisation
called Ruptura, which was the legal part, the legal face of the
Venezuelan Revolutionary Party, PRV, which was underground, and lead by
Douglas Bravo.
[/Douglas Bravo:Politician and guerrilla, he joined the Communist Party
in 1946 at the age of 12. He was expelled in 1964. He founded the PRV in
1966. He participated in the uprisings of 4 February and 27 November 1992./]
So then I was twelve years old. I got active when I was a boy. At that
time Venezuelan high schools were very political. I don't know where
else in the world there's such a climate, but in Venezuela, in general,
it has existed since the fifties. In high school we had 100 members of
the political movement Ruptura, 100. In the whole south region we had
300 high school members that were 12, 13, 14 years old. That's the start
of my political activism, which later gradually evolved. I have said
that there was a lot of repression at the time, a lot of persecution.
There were a lot of killings of youth and a lot of struggle. And I was
politically educated, not just in the student struggles, but also in the
struggle in the barrios.
*But youth aren't just interested in politics...we ask you what other
interests Nicolas Maduro had at the time, if he did anything apart from
study and politics.*
I was a sports person, I did a lot of sports, but I was most seriously
into baseball. I ended up in various national baseball selections, in
the delegation from the capital, and also in a national selection of
youth baseball. As I was good at sports, and we also organised other
cultural activities in the barrios, we formed youth groups who practised
soccer, baseball- we encouraged them, we organised them and lead them.
We also had a cine-club, working class theatre, working class music,
salsa, rock, a little of everything.
I played in various salsa groups and we organised the Young Rock
Movement of Caracas, there in the 80s. In Venezuela there was a very
interesting rock movement at the time. I was a member of the group
Enigma, around the place there are various videos that they have put on
Youtube. We played hard rock... the soul of this group was a Venezuelan
guitarist who I haven't seen in many years, Carlos Carillo, who learnt
to play guitar by ear, alone in his room, listening to Led Zeppelin. He
played the guitar just like Jimmy Page, the guitarist of Led Zeppelin.
He was really extraordinary, a great guitarist. So we did all this, but
without leaving the revolutionary struggle; we put out revolutionary
newspapers in the barrios.
Then the Caracazo came...
[/Caracazo: On 27 February 1989 protests and disturbances flared up
against the government of Carlos Andres Perez. The government ordered
intense repression lead by the Armed Forces, the National Guard, and the
Metropolitan Police. Unofficial sources calculate the deaths at 3,500]/
At the time of the Caracazo I was a member of the Socialist League. We
were coordinating with grassroots movements in Caracas and various parts
of the country. The Caracazo surprised everyone. Venezuela had been
accumulating small social explosions, in Merida, in the east... already
since 1984 there had been many student revolts in various places in the
country. And when Carlos Andres Perez won the 1988 elections, and just
after that he announced that he would establish an agreement with the
IMF to implement a neoliberal economic package, that is, privatise
education, health, the main companies of the country, that he would
deregulate working conditions and put the country into debt, a weird
climate was felt. And on 27 February everyone really was surprised. It
wasn't just a Caracazo, it was a Venezuelazo, it was in the whole
country [/Translator: Caracazo refers to Caracas/]. It was roughly a
general insurrection. On Saturday 5 March there were still battles all
over the place. The repression was with blood and fire. Maybe in
Caracas, in what is really greater Caracas, is where it was most felt.
People went out into the street to look, and it was like a yell of
"enough already" to the threat of a neoliberal package, to a decade and
a half of accumulating misery. Poverty reached 80%. Total misery was
around 40%. It was a situation that the country couldn't stand any more.
The Caracazo created a situation of social rupture between the
Venezuelan people and the dominant class, which was most clearly
expressed later in the political rupture that the Bolivarian military
insurrection on 4 February by/ Comandante/ Chavez signified. On 4
February the people said 'yes it can be done' and it was moment when a
vision building and conquering political power began to be born among
the vast majority of Venezuelans.
In Venezuela the whole political system was rotten. The left was tamed,
the recognised leaders of the left, with a few exceptions, were tamed by
the system, bought. Or tired of struggling. And Chavez represented an
absolutely fresh leadership to Venezuela politics, and from the first
day, revolutionary leadership. Revolutionary, nationalist, for
independence, Bolivarian. He created a different way of doing politics
which expressed the collective psychology of a country that was seeking
deep transformation, a country that didn't believe in anybody, not even
in itself. A country that started believe because of the hope of Chavez.
*But how did Nicolas Maduro end up connecting with Hugo Chavez? When?*
In 1990 I started with the Metro of Caracas and Metrobus, the system of
buses that works with the metro. I started there to work based on the
strategy that we had in the Socialist League of building a class based,
revolutionary union force in the main companies of the Venezuelan state;
the primary industries of Guayana, the national electrical company, the
Metro of Caracas, the petroleum company. A plan was put together to
develop revolutionary unions in them and to work with the forces in the
barrios and the farms. The strategic idea that we agreed on was that all
this would go towards a general insurrection against the system.
In 1991, in August, I was driving my bus through Bellas Artes, route
4-21, a route used mostly by the Caracas middle class. It was midday and
I had one last round to do when I saw a dude there, in the door of the
bus. It was a friend that I hadn't seen in a long time, Ezequiel. I had
known him in my high school years, in the '70s. "What are you doing
here?" I asked him. "I need to talk to you urgently," he responded. It
had to be something important for him to look for me and find me in the
bus. And effectively, I did the last round and then we went to lunch at
an arepa shop near the bus stop, in Bellas Artes. I remember that we had
chicken soup and some arepas.
"And what are you up to these days? Why did you want to find me?" I
asked him. "Well, Nicolas, I have been in contact with a military group
which is going to rise up against Carlos Andres." He said it like that,
straight off. I looked at him, "Are you sure?" I said. We had lost a lot
of people to traps..."It's going to be a trap, they're going to screw
you," but he said no, and started to tell me about it. I don't know if
in Spain it's like this, but in Venezuela everyone knows everything, and
he knew that there were two leaders, one that was a priest, who
controlled the west, who turned out to be Arias Cardenas, and the other,
and this is how he told me, with these words, was a /tropero/, who led
troops, and who was a follower of Bolivar, Ezequiel Zamora, and who sang
Ali Primera songs. And I told him that this seemed like a trap. He told
me they were asking us to mobilise our small union forces. "And when is
this going to happen?" I asked him. "In two or three months," he
replied. This was August of '91. "And what can we do?" I asked, and he
gave me various ideas, places to attack. And this confirmed to me that
it could be a trap. So I told him, "Well, comrade, this smells like a
trap to me, look they are going to kill us... they have killed so many
people." "Ezequiel," I said, "If these people exist and they take up
arms, the Venezuelan people are going to go with them for a hundred
years, people the people are disgusted, and if there really is a
patriotic sector in the Armed Forces, and they raise up arms, be assured
that the people will go with them". We said goodbye and some days passed
and I didn't see him again. He was going to contact me, but he didn't,
we didn't coincide anywhere. And in December there were rumours that
there would be a military uprising on 16 or 17 December. Later we found
out that there really were projects to rise up for 17 December. Later
there was a rumour that this attempt dissipated. So I met again with
Ezequiel and asked him what was happening. "It's going ahead, its being
put together." He said. "Of course it's going ahead, what I don't know
is when, because I haven't been in touch," he said. And I didn't see him
again until 4 February. I was working at night on my route 4-21, and
when I got home very late, at around 2.30, the phone rang. It was my
sister, who explained to me that there was a military uprising against
the government. And I thought, "let's see how they are, now the
persecution starts," because in Latin America the traditional thing is
that the military coups are by the right-wing, and as the crisis that
neoliberalism had created was so big here, anything could happen. So in
the morning they told us that the head of the coup was going to speak,
and suddenly on television was the image of a dark skinned man, skinny,
spoon faced, red beret, and he spoke and said what he said...
[/It started off with: Companeros, unfortunately, for now, the
objectives that we had planed weren't achieved in the capital city...]/
And I leaped almost up to the ceiling and shouted: "the thing was real!"
Oh my god, I was left with this thing in my body... excited, like those
who go crazy. Immediately I went out into the street. Of course, it was
necessary to take shelter, because every time that something happened in
the country, they always came out to look for a group of unionists,
whose list the political police had. That day I slept in a safe house.
I started to look for Ezequiel. I found him, and we sought out contact
with the soldiers, who were already in prison. And from that day, I, as
member of the Socialist League, connected myself with this Bolivarian
military movement, with Chavez, and from the street I worked in
solidarity with them. Later we prepared for the other uprising, and then
we did directly participate in the street, on 27 November, there we did
mobilise people in many barrios in Caracas. But in the end they defeated
us militarily.
[/On 27 November 1992 there was another attempt at a coup against the
government of Carlos Andres Perez, just nine months after the 4 February
one. Civilians and military participated, as well as the political
parties Bandera Roja and Third Way./]
Chavez, on 4 February 1992 opened up a historical process, he split
history into two and woke up a revolutionary force that has managed to
change not just the economic, political and social model of Venezuela,
which has quickly evolved towards a proposal of Our American socialism,
but has also shaken up the story of Latin America and the Caribbean like
nothing else in the last 200 years.
*So, are we facing a second Latin American independence? We ask...*
/Comandante/ Chavez had reflected on this and would say that it's just
one independence. That the independence is continuous, there's no first
or second, but rather it's just one process. It could be the second big
moment in the independence, of a new independence for Latin America and
the Caribbean that effectively, from the historical point of view, if
one were strict, you'd have to say that it started with the Cuban
revolution. With an expansive process in terms of ideas and the example,
the real force to transform society and take political power for
transforming projects in this Chavista stage.
In the second stage Chavez had a fundamental weight because he achieved,
in a short time, from 4 February 1992 to 5 March 2013- 21 years, one
month, and a day have passed -- the creation of a revolutionary
movement. He transformed Venezuelan society, modified the power
relationships with imperialism on our continent, and founded various
organisations within the Bolivarian concept of the strength rings
[anillos de fureza]...
*The strength rings...it would help to explain that for our Spanish
readers, we'd suggest...*
The liberator Simon Bolivar believed in various strength rings from the
geopolitical point of view. The first strength ring, which he called
Colombia, he founded a powerful nation of republics where now there is
Colombia, Ecuador, Panama, and Venezuela. Panama was part of Colombia,
which reached up to Central America. A second strength ring that the
liberator visualised was the alliance between this Colomiba with the
confederation of Peru, and the recently created Bolivia, which almost
took up a fundamental part of South America and part of Central America.
It had the Amazon, the Pacific, the Andes, the Caribean, an Atlantic
coast... that was the second strength ring, the alliance of Colombia,
Peru, and Bolivia. And the third strength ring, he thought about it and
he activated it, but in the end it failed, thanks to Gringo sabotage. In
the Amphictyonic Panama Congress he was thinking of proposing a great
confederation of independent republics, previously Spanish colonies,
confederated into just one. It was going to go from Mexico to Patagonia.
It was a power bloc. It was the third strength ring.
/Comandante /Chavez, rescuing the doctrine and strategic thought of the
Liberator, advanced in something similar. The first strength ring: the
ALBA and Petrocaribe. The ALBA, which is a political, economic, social,
integral alliance of a bloc that is advancing towards socialism. A
second strength ring is Mercosur and Unasur. A third strength ring is
the CELAC, the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States. All of
this already in Bolivarian thought. Maybe the difference between ALBA
and the Colombia project is the presence of countries and republics of
the three sides of the continent- the Caribbean, Central America, and
South America, and that they don't have common borders. But we have the
great strength of political and ideological identity on the way to
socialism in the ALBA, and Petrocaribe is a powerful energy and economic
alliance that has acted like the first strength ring for the
constitution of a new Caribbean in the new Latin America that exists today.
The second ring is made up of Mercosur and Unasur. That is, South
America, which is more and more geopolitically and geoeconomically defined.
The third strength ring, I said it already, is the CELAC.
Chavez, in 21 years, managed to liberate Venezuela and constitute an
ensemble of liberating strength rings of the continent. And without a
doubt, he managed to generate a new alternative model to capitalism, to
neoliberalism, and rescue the flag of socialism for humanity. The figure
of Chavez is transcendental for understanding the historical process of
Latin America, even for understanding the thought of Bolivar.
*As foreign minister, Nicolas Maduro played an important role in the
creation of these rings... but we'll continue talking about his relation
with Hugo Chavez.*
The first time that I physically saw Hugo Chavez was the 16 December
1993. I was in the Yare prison, visiting with a group of companions. To
see him in person impressed me. We had a meeting for about an hour.
"What are you hear for?" he asked us. We were Metro union leaders. I
told him, "Well, we want to know what your strategy is." You know, us
people from Caracas use 'tu' (informal grammar) straight away. "We want
to know what we can expect from you in the future". And he didn't stop
speaking for 50 minutes. On his bed there was the book A Grain of Corn
by Tomas Borge, the conversation with Fidel Castro. And it was full of
little pieces of paper inserted in many pages. That made me happy,
because Fidel Castro was an important moral example for Latin America
and for the world, a phenomenon of world politics and history. Chavez
didn't stop talking this whole time, with a lot of coherence, about
everything that had to be done. He was sure that he would get out of
jail soon. He told us about everything that had to be done in the
street, that it was necessary to advance in building a Bolivarian
military movement in the ranks of the Armed Forces, build up the
grassroots so that an insurrection would be possible. And also open up
spaces in case a peaceful way was possible. He explained all this, and I
left there jumping about just like in February 1992. I left very
excited, very motivated. I didn't have any doubt about his personality
because of what I had learnt from his letters, but that day, 16 December
1993, I sealed a spiritual commitment with him. I'm going with this man
wherever he goes, I told myself. And that's how it was.
They transferred him to the military hospital because of a health
problem, and on 26 March 1994 he was freed. It was Easter Saturday.
From that Saturday I was by his side, working on a thousand things. He
called me at the end of 1994 so that I would form part of the national
leadership of the Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement 200 (MBR200) that he
had founded in 1982 and that now had been reorganised. I accompanied him
there for about a year and a half, always involved in the union struggles.
At around that time in Venezuela the work law was reformed, and stole
the right to what we call social benefits from us in 1997. And he headed
up the struggles. They were years of a lot of repression, from 1994 to
1998, and as we might say between us, when you weren't prisoner they
were looking for you. We had the political police there in anything that
we might do. They even came to a baptism.
Later, in 1995, Chavez proposed a slogan: For now, for none of them,
constituent now. Because there were mayoral and governor elections, and
he said that we shouldn't exhaust ourselves in them. We were going to
waste time, he would say, and divide our forces which we still hadn't
finished building up. He already perceived that the solution for the
country was a constituent assembly. A popular, plenipotentiary,
revolutionary constituent.
1996 was a very difficult year for us, there was a lot of repression,
and he proposed at the end of this year that we start preparing for the
elections of 1998. There were people who didn't agree, but well, those
/companeros/ gave in, and in 1997, on 19 April, we called for a national
assembly of the MBR200, with 500 delegates that came from around the
country. It was in Valencia, the capital of Carabobo state, and there we
decided to launch /comandante/ Chavez's candidature and push for a new
political movement that would help us be victorious, and further, there
was a third decision; to build a broad political electoral alliance.
And that was what we did. We launched ourselves in 1997. The oligarchy
believed that Chavez wouldn't get more than 10%. So we founded the Fifth
Republican Movement, MVR. He chose that name. A commission was formed to
chose the name and he proposed that. The basic idea was to participate
in the elections in order to call for a constituent that would drive a
democratic and peaceful revolution in the country.
In January 1998 he had 6% in the polls. In February, 10%. The
bourgeoisie said that Chavez wouldn't get more than 10. But later it
went up to 20, 30, 40. In July he had a bit more than forty. It was
already an electoral phenomenon. All the bourgeois candidates were
gradually shattered, and we won the elections with 56% of the votes.
In these elections I was elected legislator to the last Congress of the
IV Republic, and they made me head of the parliamentary group, of the
[pro Chavez] legislators. And I accompanied the /comandante/ until we
had to resign in order to convoke the constituent.
The referendum was held so that the people could say they agreed that an
assembly be convoked to write a new constitution. And this referendum,
through a second question, the people were consulted on the electoral
methodology to elect the constituents. It was a completely different
method to the one used until then for the congress. In the referendum
almost 80% approved the making of the constituent. On 25 July 1999 the
constituent assembly was elected. The new constitution was written and
publicly debated and on 15 December 1999 the people voted for it. There
was brutal campaign where the opposition accused the constituent of
being abortionist, of prohibiting private property, eliminating freedom
of expression, religious freedom. They said a thousand things, but the
constitution was voted for by 71.78% of Venezuelans. And that's how the
revolutionary democratic process started. Later I was elected as
legislator, I was a legislator for almost eight years. I presided over
various working commissions, I was president of the national assembly,
and in August 2006 the president called me and he named me as foreign
minister.
*The vehicle moves swiftly through the airport to a side door. Nicolas
Maduro stops it next to a staircase for the presidential plane. We get
out. Suddenly we realise the president has disappeared, he's not with us
anymore. We see him around 100 metres away, he's gone up to some people
who were waiting to greet him. How on earth has he got that far so
quickly? He returns, gets in the plane. He enters the back part and we
lose sight of him. Twenty-five minutes later we land in Maiquetia, the
Caracas airport. A car is waiting for the president, who invites us to
go with him. Again he drives it himself. We head for Caracas, our
recorder in the armrest. With a leaflet in his hands, Maduro resumes the
conversation where we had left it.*
/El comandante/ called me on 7 August at night. He wanted to make some
changes to the cabinet and he had already asked me for the CVs of some
of the legislators with the idea of choosing a minister from among them.
We had a lot of contact in those days. It was during the last war that
there was in Beirut, with aggression from Israel, that was finally
defeated by Hezbollah. He called me that Monday, it would have been at
around 8 at night and he started to talk to me about politics. Later he
commented to me that the foreign minister Ali Rodriguez was sick and
that he would take a few months to get better. I started to think about
some name to propose for foreign minister in case he asked me. But he
said that needed to resolve the problem and he had thought of me for
foreign minister. He said to me, "I need a foreign minister, but it has
to be a comrade, who's going to be by my side as a comrade, who is more
than a foreign minister". Never in my life had it occurred to me that I
could be a foreign minister. Never. Once, in 2001, he talked to me about
taking on the minister of work, and as I was a union leader, that seemed
easy to me. But the only thing I asked him was, "President, have you
thought well about this?" And he told me that he had thought about it a
lot. "Start tomorrow," he said. And the next day I went to the assembly
and I resigned from my positions as legislator and president of the
assembly and I was as foreign minister for six years and four months.
They were years of a lot of combat in the international arena, with the
building of and consolidation of ALBA, the consolidation of Petrocaribe,
the foundation on 17 April 2007, in Margarita, of UNASUR, the foundation
on 2 and 3 December 2011 of the CELAC, and in general the strengthening
of strategic alliances with Russia, China, Iran, Belarus, India, the
whole map we have built up.
*Difficult years, putting up with the hostility of the empire, no?*
They were complicated years, because Venezuela is in the epicentre of a
battle for a new world, a battle against imperialism for Latin America
and the world. And in this battle I got to know even Hugo Chavez even
better, as a human being, as a leader, as a very demanding person. He
was very demanding. He was an example, but he was always clear about
what he wanted and how to get it. He was a man of action, in that sense
he was a lot like Bolivar-- in the sense of privileging action. Action
as the centre of life, of reflection, of formulating ideas, of
philosophy, of everything. He was very studious, very intelligent.
Further, he had a virtue that Fidel Castro also had, which is to convert
complicated things into simple things, and transmit, communicate with
his language with the majorities. Chavez managed to convoke the vast
majority of the people to politics. He called on them for big tasks. For
a new independence. And left behind a formed [politically educated]
people, a people with grand values. We can't say that the revolution is
totally consolidated, but it has advanced along an important stretch in
terms of the possibility of making it irreversible, a long stretch in
terms of ideology, the formulation of our ideology. We have a
revolutionary, Bolivarian, socialist ideology. We have doctrines. We
have a national project for a homeland, a country, a great homeland,
articulated with a vision of the world. It's impossible to have a
revolution, trying to transcend capitalism and build a socialist society
thinking of just one country. That's impossible. If one doesn't think of
humanity, socialism is impossible. It's necessary to have a vision that
encompasses the world, all of humanity. And in the region that you
relate to, in this case Latin America and the Caribbean... In that sense
Trotsky was right. Even though Lenin was too, because if Lenin hadn't
consolidated the Bolshevik revolution, nothing would have been able to
advance. In this debate that there was 100 years ago, bringing it into
the present, Hugo Chavez chose the idea of permanent revolution in
practical terms. Revolution in all the different areas, every day,
revolution in different dimensions, the Venezuelan dimension, the Latin
American revolution, Latin American independence, alliances with
anti-imperialist forces of the world. In those years I managed to
understand a lot with him, from the human and political points of views,
and to get to know, deeply, the ideas that made up Hugo Chavez's
project. Now I'm doing a lot of tasks, and it's as if he had been
preparing me for this battle; but I think he also prepared the people,
he prepared us all. No one can feel themselves individually prepared for
this battle that we are waging, but he prepared all of us for it.
*We ask you, being at the head of the foreign ministry, what was the
thorniest issue you had to face?*
The possibility of a war with Colombia. In July 2010 Uribe was preparing
for aggression. Various Latin American intelligence organisations
provided us with first hand information that, checked against our own,
gave us the coordinates of two possible attacks and their dates, in
order to open up a war front with Venezuela in the days before Juan
Manual Santos assumed the presidency. This was the most dangerous
moment. We denounced it, UNASUR made a declaration, and I did a
lightening tour of all the countries of South America in two days, and
President Chavez was personally leading this difficult situation. We had
all our armed forces, our entire radar and defence detection system
activated.
We worked hard, politically and diplomatically, and we stopped Uribe
from attacking Venezuela. We defeated him in the political and
diplomatic area. And also in the military area because the military in
Colombia refused to carry out the operation against Venezuela. This was
perhaps the most complex moment of all the moments I had to live through
as the foreign minister of Chavez.
*But later the president started to show signs that he was sick and
finally Nicolas Maduro became vice-president...*
Yes, a very hard and difficult period began for /el comandante/ when he
started to suffer strong pains that affected a knee, a leg, which at
some points stopped him from walking. We thought it was a muscular
problem, other things were thought about, until he got the exam, when it
was discovered that there was an abscessed tumour that was easily
solved. Unfortunately later it was show that it was a very big cancerous
tumour, very aggressive, and that grown in a very short time, and that
affected him a lot from 2011 to 2012. In his last two years of life he
was seriously affected by the operations, pain, treatment, and with all
of that he was always at the front, running the revolution, always aware
of the main problems of the people, of the building of socialism, of the
important problems in the international arena. He didn't neglect any
front. Although it's true that his rhythm of attending to and
maintaining the dynamic of the Bolivarian revolution decreased. For
example, in the electoral campaign, he himself told us that he felt like
a boxer had gone into the ring with one hand tied. He fought with just
one hand, and he won by a large margin. But either way he was very
affected by the whole campaign, suffering pain. The medical exams that
they conducted on him in this time, done with the most modern
technology, said that there was an absence of cancerous cells. Not one.
However, after the elections and after the big triumph of 7 October
2012, the pains increased. October and the start of November were months
of a lot of pain and when he left Venezuela to undergo new treatment, it
was discovered that the cancerous tumour had reproduced itself in the
same place, and that's when he investigated the dangerousness of the
operation that they were going to perform on him. Face the evident risk
of undergoing for the fourth time, an operation in the same place. An
operation with a lot of risk, and he decided to prepare everything for
just in case...
*Hugo Chavez was aware of the seriousness of the situation?*
His intuition never failed. With all the other operations he went in
with a spirit of victory and sure of coming out fine. The day that he
found out about this fourth operation, he talked with the doctors, and
he knew intuitively that it was the last one. He called me on Sunday 2
December. I was going over the repairs of the Bolivar pantheon and he
used a codeword that we had agreed on between the two of us. It was bad
news. This was a blow... I didn't know how big, one is always
optimistic, but he told me, "Send me a commission". And I sent it to
him. To Havana. Diosdado Cabello, Cilia [Flores], Rafael Ramirez, and
his son in law, Jorge Arriaza was already there. That was, if I remember
correctly, the 3^rd or 4^th of December. They talked with him for two
days. He told them that if he was gone, that I would prepare to convene
elections, and he sorted out many things-- personal, political, many
details, and he ordered the commission to go back to Venezuela. They
arrived early on 5 December, and that was when they told me the news
about what was going to happen, the operation, and what he had decided.
That for me was one of the biggest blows that I remember. Such a hard
blow... to know that /el comandante /was in those circumstances... I
think that in some way he sent me a message to prepare myself, so that I
wouldn't receive the blow suddenly, so that I could digest it. He was
always careful with everything. I went there on 5 December. I arrived at
around 8 at night and I was with him until 5 or 6 in the morning of the
6^th , and he talked for a long time. Jorge Arreaza was a witness of
this conversation, he noted it all. It was a very difficult
conversation, agonising. He kept giving me instructions about many
things. He went into the future, he explained it to me, and then he
returned to where we were. I almost couldn't speak, I was very affected,
it was like a goodbye. And there he decided to return to Venezuela to
explain this and many more things; in the end he didn't explain them
all, because we told him that it wasn't necessary. We landed in Caracas
airport at midnight of the 6 and 7 of December, I got in the car with
him to his residency in Miraflores. We talked, he kept giving me
instructions, as if nothing was happening. That if we didn't inaugurate
this...that it was necessary to do this thing... he was very motivated,
but the pains were a terrible thing. On the 7^th he rested, although
with a lot of pain, and on the 8^th we met, we studied the situation
from the constitutional point of view, and he talked and said what he
had to say.
[/What he said was: If anything happens, if I'm prevented from
continuing at the head of the presidency of the Bolivarian Republic of
Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, not just in this situation should he conclude
the period as the constitution mandates, but also in my firm, full,
irrevocable, and absolute opinion, in the situation where it's necessary
to call presidential elections, you should elect Nicolas Maduro as
president of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela/.]
Later he went to be operated, and in a particular moment of the
operation he almost left us. The people lived through that with a lot of
pain. And the right-wing? The right-wing didn't stop provoking the
people for even a moment. They wanted, if there were a fatal outcome,
for the people to come out into the streets like crazy, that Venezuela
would enter a spiral of violence. We worked on removing the hate that
was being promoted by the right-wing. In those circumstances, and as I
was carrying out two positions, as vice-president -- he had named me
vice-president before he left, in October --the proposal came up to name
Elias Jaua foreign minister, which he [Chavez] approved of immediately,
and from there Elias took on the foreign ministry and me the
vice-presidency, in the middle of those painful circumstances, with such
uncertainty, when the /comandante/ would improve, and other more
difficult moments that we had to face. And we had to prepare ourselves
for what we never thought would happen. Until the last second on that
day 5 March we hoped that he would overcome those circumstances.
*We are already outside Caracas. At a pedestrian crossing a large group
of people are crowding around, held back by traffic police, who have
been warned that it's about the president's car. But he stops and tells
the police to allow the people to cross. A little bewildered, the police
let them cross. We resume.*
The right-wing were preparing to start a process of economic
destabilisation that would be finished off with social and political
destabilisation. Imperialism and its Venezuelan allies were always
anxious to end with the revolution, and they tried to end with Chavez
through all the possible ways; coup, assassination, elections. But they
couldn't do it through any of those ways. But now they planned, knowing
the seriousness of the/ comandante,/ to take advantage of the situation
to organise chaos. And effectively they caused a lot of damage. We are
still getting over some of the effects of the brutal economic sabotage,
something that would be difficult for other countries to bear, with
hoarding, speculation, an economic war against the country. A war that
was unleashed in November and continued in December, January, February,
March...When /el comandante/ died and elections were called, the level
of scarcity was terrible and a result of the economic sabotage. They
sabotaged the electricity system, which is vulnerable in all countries.
And they used a range of mechanisms of psychological war to provoke rage
and hate in people. We confronted every one of these elements by saying
the truth to the people, calling them to battle, to permanent
mobilisation. The electoral victory that we obtained on 14 April
happened in the middle of mourning for the tragedy. A paralysing
mourning in the middle of an electric war in which I arrived in one
state without electricity and I left it without the electricity having
returned. We suffered a brutal economic war. We mobilised the people and
we had a victory.
And later we implemented a methodology of popular government that we
have called Street Government. The aim of the street government is to
mobilise the people and be able to identify the fundamental problems and
commit resources and to actions for their solution. With this
methodology we have approved, in the first 100 days of government, over
2000 projects which came out of direct contact with the people as we
travelled the country. We have invested in these street government
working days over 16 billion dollars in projects for economic
development, infrastructure, roads, housing, agro industry, education,
health. It's a revolution within the revolution. A profound change in
the methods of leadership of the Bolivarian revolution, with the
construction of collective leadership, because it was substituting such
a powerful leadership, such an organiser like Chavez is almost
impossible. It can only be done with a great collective military,
civilian force. What I have done is this: activate a new collective
political leadership of the revolution. We have activated a great
collective civil-military leadership. The armed forces, you yourselves
have been able to see it today, constitute a revolutionary force, a
revitalising force of the socialist revolution. A force that is
committed to anti-imperialist socialism, committed to the homeland.
Consciously committed, with discipline. Maybe one the most comprehensive
rules that /comandante/ Chavez left us with for the continuity of the
Bolivarian revolution.
We have managed to neutralise and defeat the right-wing plot. Now we are
stabilising and consolidating the revolution into a new stage. Creating
new mechanisms to deepen the construction of the socialist economic
model, of the social model that guarantees free public education, free
public health, the right to food, that guarantees the right to work,
fair pay... A revolution that guarantees development and economic
prosperity, social prosperity, and social equality, that's the objective
of Bolivarian socialism.
*The car stops in front of the door of the president's residence. We get
out. We have been recording for almost two hours, but there are so many
things unsaid. We enter. On a table, photos of Chavez, a little statue
of the singer Ali Primera, an image of a saint. Maduro points at them.*
This is Saint Benito, a black saint. And this is Ali. In one way, Ali
built with his song, with the cultural movement that he lead, the ideas
of the Bolivarian revolution. He was a working class leader, a great
agitator. Ali filled a stadium when the left couldn't mobilise anyone.
And he drove people crazy, enthusiastic, when he talked and sang. He
always sang the national anthem, and in the middle of the anthem he
talked to the people.
Chavez didn't meet Ali, but patriotic militants listened to him. It was
daring that an active soldier listened to him, Ali was harassed by the
system. But he was the first man on the left to arrive at the people
through his songs. He had a personality similar to Chavez.
*We sit down for one last question. It's nine o'clock at night; it's
been a long day. We ask about Spain, about the European Union, about the
possibility of an alliance that leaves neo-colonialism behind, about
multipolarity.*
The European Union was a great hope because it seemed that a bloc of
countries capable of constituting an counterweight to the hegemonic
power of the United States was arising. No one doubted that the United
States constitutes an imperial, hegemonic project; it's a country that
has almost 1000 military bases distributed about the world. No one has
doubts about the imperialist calling of elites who run the US.
Unfortunately the elites who run the majority of governments in Europe
have succumbed in terms of their foreign policies, to a strange
dependence on the US. It's strange because there's no economic nor
traditional policy-based explanation. The elites who govern Europe act
against the interests of the people of Europe and the interests of
humanity. What they have done recently, get down on their knees before
the US government with the case of young Snowden, has no comparison.
What they did to president Evo Morales, a Latin American head of state,
desperate to comply with the US government in its craziness for
capturing Snowden, marks a before and after.
There is a great struggle in terms of what you called multipolarity, a
multipolar world, and this struggle implies a transition. Every
transition is made up of advances and setbacks. Sometimes it can seem
like we are going backwards towards a unipolar world, when the US
subjugates countries as powerful as those in Europe. But the worst is
that it subjugates them through the WB [World Bank] and the IMF, taking
them towards an economic policy of self-destruction. There shouldn't be
any doubt, they are destroying Europe from the inside. They are
destroying its economic base, its social model. They are getting close
to a serious implosion, that could be uncontrollable. How long are they
going to take to get to the point where there are large outbursts by the
masses? I don't know, nobody knows. But the situation is unbearable for
the people. The economic packages that they are imposing on the vast
majority of the European countries are unbearable. Latin America
couldn't take them, it exploded in a thousand pieces and this revolution
arose.
The natural alliance for a world of peace would have to be established
between Europe and Latin America. An alliance for respect of democracy,
human rights, of cultural exchange, cooperation for economic
development, to share the big advances in science for the collective
good, to share this beautiful cultural and human diversity that Latin
America has, with open doors to Europe. Latin America has shown itself
to be a very friendly continent. Giant contingents of Spanish,
Portuguese, and Italians came here in the thousands over a hundred years
ago. They came here in the '40s, '50s of last century practically
without anything, and they prospered here. Latin America is the
continent of hope, and Europe should be a continent of peace, of the
future. If only.
Here there is a saying that goes there's no bad that for good doesn't
come [when bad things happen take the best thing out of them]. It's
possible the bad of neoliberalism can make a good in the end, waking up
the peoples of Europe, who lived in a state of well being, forgetting
that the rest of the world existed, and they could see that in the South
the opportunity to have there their brothers. Don't see us with contempt
or distrust. The revolutions that there are in Latin America have to be
seen with interest, with sympathy. Because we have discovered perfectly
valid formulas for building truly democratic, educated, free, and truly
prosperous societies. One doesn't understand why Europe abandons its
right to economic development in order to hand itself over to the hands
of financial capital. Can financial capital do more than the people and
the social movements with a democratic tradition and struggles for
equality of Europe? I don't think so. Can the financial power of four
European banks, of four theirs, do more than society? What does European
society think about this? What do the intellectuals, the universities
think about this? What do the European soldiers think about this? Are
they going to allow their countries to be destroyed? What do the people
think? Are they going to allow an operation of total dismantling of the
social and economic structure to be culminated? And what will the future
of Europe be? Misery? Emigration? They are questions that sound like
catastrophes, but we are really facing them. When one sees Greece
paralysed for three days, in a desperate gesture of all of society
because they shut down the television on them, because they got rid of
thousands of public employees, because they do whatever they feel like
every day, reducing wages, pensions... is this the message, is this the
future? After these economic packages, how to glimpse hope?
The peoples don't resign themselves to being annihilated. Spain has a
glorious history of struggle for democracy. A glorious history that even
lead them to defeat Napoleon. The peoples don't resign to be colonies,
nor to being vassals, and least of financial capital. Because he who
never goes badly is financial capital, it swallows the people,
countries. But, well there's no bad that for good doesn't come. Maybe
the practice of neoliberalism will end in a big awakening, in a big
rebirth of the real Europe, the Europe of justice and freedom. Of
revolutionary Europe. Because the idea of the revolutionaries to
re-found humanity came from Europe. The republican idea came from the
French revolution and was taken up by the liberators. They put it into
the concoction of Latin American blend and converted it into a native
revolution.
Europe needs to take up its flags again, those of real humanism, and
find its path. I don't have any doubt that Europe will find its path.
This youth that is now unemployed in the streets, the professionals
whose rights are being stolen, will start it, a working class, the
left-wing intellectuals will take up its historical flags again, hoist
the genuinely humanist and left-wing flags. I am totally sure that
Europe will build its alternative. Each in their own way. Pushing
towards the future. Because those who don't dare to push hard into the
future, doesn't have a right to it.
*We would have liked to have asked many more things; the relationship
with Spain specifically, with Colombia, with the US. To talk about the
efforts that are being carried out in the fight against corruption. The
measures that are being taken for security, sending military patrols
into the barrios. About how inflation is going to be fought, about so
many things... but it's already late, and we have to finish. Maybe in
the future we'll be granted the opportunity to formulate all these
questions. If only.*
/Translation by Tamara Pearson for Venezuelanalysis.com/
Source: El Viejo Topo <http://www.elviejotopo.com/web/revistas.php>
--
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