[News] Hugo Chavez Frias: The People are with me
News at freedomarchives.org
News at freedomarchives.org
Thu Apr 22 08:57:31 EDT 2004
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=17583
Published: Sunday, April 18, 2004
Bylined to: <mailto:news.desk at vheadline.com>VHeadline.com Reporters
Diario Liberazione: Interview with Hugo Chavez Frias The People are with me&
Diario Liberazione (Italy) special correspondent Angela Nocioni: In the
garden of Miraflores, lost in the eternal bustle of Caracas, the sound of a
TV news broadcast can be heard (March 9, 2004). In shirt and jeans, with
the eyes of one who has not slept for days, Hugo Chavez peels away the lost
decade of the 1990s. Insults and omens of a short life for him and his
government scroll across the screen.
<mailto:pstinard at hotmail.com>Translated from Spanish by Philip Stinard
The President of Venezuela reads Stieglitz, but recites Cervantes: To
Sancho Panza, worried about dogs barking in the night, Don Quixote replies:
If they are barking, Sancho, it is because we are riding on horseback.He
stretches his arms and smiles: If they make brazen responses like these, it
means that we are advancing. May they continue barking, because we will
continue riding.
Nocioni: President, will there finally be a referendum to take away your
mandate?
President Chavez Frias: Its possible. The way is open. But, I think it
unlikely. We achieved [put in the Constitution] the revocatory referendum
ourselves. It guarantees the people the right not to be seized by the power
that originates from themselves. Its an instrument made to break the trap
of representative democracy, with which the elites came into power by
taking advantage of the political ignorance of the masses.
Nocioni: Is this your judgment on representative democracy in general, or
the historical reality of Latin America?
President Chavez Frias: I dont usually generalize. In Latin America,
representative democracy was used by the elites to manipulate the people.
We dont deny the importance of representative petitions. But, instruments
like the referendum obligate all leaders. For me, this is not a danger; I
am working hard. My government is already five years old, and my popular
support continues intact.
Nocioni: How do you measure popular support?
President Chavez Frias: In many ways. Support for my government is
confirmed by the polls commissioned and paid for by the opposition. As for
me, the street tells me, my sense of smell. I believe in my senses more
than the polls.
The referendum requires a lot of political maturity. However, we are being
confronted by a political action that shows little maturity: The opposition
has not assumed its obligation with responsibility. They take advantage of
the Constitution in order to break it. They invoke the name of the People
in order to betray them. They were convinced that they could legally
collect the required signatures. To convoke a referendum, they needed
2,400,000 signatures, and in the elections of 2000, they barely received
2,600,000 votes. However, they have committed fraud. They collected
signatures from dead people, children, and foreigners. If the National
Election Council (CNE) had acted as an impartial arbiter, they would have
completely annulled the process. Why wasnt anyone accused of electoral
fraud? I believe in having an arbiter. At any rate, the question isnt
closed. The opposition lacks 600,000 signatures. They had to take away the
870,000 signatures that had been declared probably invalid. Will they? I
have serious doubts.
Nocioni: If [you lose the referendum], would you leave?
President Chavez Frias: Yes, but one thing is for me to turn over power,
and another is that I leave defeated, crying, to write my memoirs. Im not
even 50 years old yet, and I have never felt as good as I do now.
Nocioni: Would you return to run for office? The Constitution doesnt
prohibit it.
President Chavez Frias: I should think about it. Clearly, I would not pave
the way for anyone who wants to turn Venezuela into a paradise for the
oligarchs. The script for this plan is in Washington. I say that more
frequently. I have proof.
Nocioni: What are they?
President Chavez Frias: The State Department finances all of the opposition
groups, especially the most radical ones. Sumate(the group chosen to
collect signatures for the referendum) has received hundreds of thousands
of dollars. They cant deny that because I have the documents. Campaign
financing for the referendum passed through the same channels as those that
financed the operation to remove Aristide from Haiti. As for the rest,
proof is not lacking. Bush declared it publicly. In Monterrey, he said: We
will continue to work to restore the rightsof the people of Bolivia,
Venezuela, and Haiti.In the company of President Fox, he repeated: We will
do everything to guarantee the revocatory referendum.
Nocioni: Private TV stations are conducting a war against your government.
You have often threatened to apply legal sanctions against them, but you
dont do it. Why?
President Chavez Frias: I am the Head of Government. Others should
intervene. The oligarchy controls some state powers. In Venezuela, the
Supreme Court of Justice declared the legal process against the coup
leaders to be without standing.
Thus, the curtain fell on the coup of April 11, 2002. I have the legal
instruments to intervene against the TV stations. They have recently
started to call again for insurrection, for the people to disavow the
government. I could do it [close the stations] to protect the Constitution,
but to shut down a channel is a decision that must be made with nerves of
steel. Tuesday night [March 2], when the CNE announced their decision on
the referendum, I was ready to cut their signal. Here, war propaganda is
prohibited. If the TV channels had thrown gasoline on the burning
subversive focal points, especially those in eastern Caracas, there would
already have been deaths, injuries, and arrests. The situation was tense
that night. I could have censored them. I watched all of the channels until
three in the morning. In the end, I decided to continue to fight the war of
communications face to face.
Nocioni: Will you continue to trust only in the State TV channel, or do you
think that alternative media can help you?
President Chavez Frias: I trust in the community media. But on the other
hand, there is a front that has all of the national and international
channels, starting with CNN, at their disposition.
Nocioni: During the opposition protest this week, several arrests were
made. Do you consider these people to be political prisoners?
President Chavez Frias: They were arrested, but not for reasons of
political persecution. They were arrested because they were caught in the
act. Why wasnt there even one arrest or injury during the previous
opposition march? Because they decided that. There is violence when they
decide that there should be violence. I personally give instructions to the
forces that depend on me. Here in Caracas, I must use the National Guard
because the Caracas Metropolitan Police contribute to public disorder. My
government has not impeded protests. For three years, there were no
injuries or arrests during the marches. When the [coup] conspiracy started,
violence started. It is a copy of the April 11 coup strategy that plays out
again and again. That is their plan: They need deaths and injuries to blame
Chavez. They have the big advantage that the images transmitted to the rest
of the world are their images, those they choose so the world thinks that I
am a tyrant.
Nocioni: Last year, in Porto Alegre, you spoke to the movement meeting at
the World Forum as if you were speaking of a possible alliance. Do you
still have that idea?
President Chavez Frias: An alliance in search of an alternative. This
country, with the Caracazo, fought against neoliberal dogma. [The Caracazo
is the popular rebellion of 1989, which revolted against an IMF economic
package, the first rebellion of its kind in Latin America.] On that day,
Caracas exploded and went to the streets. Thats how it happened. It exists
in Venezuela; this is the Venezuelan People. If it had not been for the
Caracazo, which added the power of the people, the publicly owned
Venezuelan petroleum industry would have been privatized approximately 10
years ago.
Ive had problems in getting the Latin American Left to understand who I am.
They have described me as a wild savage. Only Fidel Castro has been able to
understand who is Hugo Chavez. The Latin American Left looks at me with
suspicion. Once, I was invited to the Sao Paulo Forum, on behalf of the
Cubans, but they wouldnt let me speak. The historical political parties of
the continent, from Brazils PT to the Mexican PRD, saw me as a coup leader;
they were victims of disinformation. Only since April 11 have the
antiglobalization movements started to see my government as an experimental
alternative to imperial power.
Many of them will be in the streets, in many cities of the world,
demonstrating on March 20 against the occupation of Iraq and against the
doctrine of preemptive war.
Perhaps March 20 will be the occasion to tell the United States to take
their hands off Venezuela.The fundamental question is the same: oil. The US
does not want the price of oil to stay the same or increase. They dont
forgive the role I played in resurrecting OPEC. When I came to power, the
price of a barrel of oil was $12. I visited the OPEC countries over the
course of 10 days. I even went to Baghdad. Clinton, who was in the White
House, threatened me; he warned me not to travel through [Iraqi] air space
because they [the US] could shoot me down. I answered: Do you think that I
will cancel my trip to Baghdad just because you want me to? I will go on
camel, if necessary. My work with OPEC paid off. If the politics of oil
pricing changed, so too must the role of Venezuela. Today, the price of oil
is around $30 per barrel.
Nocioni: The ideal price?
President Chavez Frias: The fair price. Maybe even a little below the true
[market] price. But lets return to Iraq. Washington had calculated that a
military conquest of Iraq was possible; but to guarantee petroleum
production is another question. That was when they decided to take control
of Venezuelan oil.
Nocioni: Let me read to you once of your recent quotes: Not one more drop
of oil for the United States if they continue their interference.Do you
think that Venezuela should use oil as a weapon? In the past, you didnt
think that way.
President Chavez Frias: Its one thing to say that I dont want to use it;
its another thing when they obligate me to use it. In Bushs case, he should
give up the insanity of intervening directly in Venezuela. He would be
starting a conflict here, and it would be absurd to continue selling oil
[to the US]. The United States is not the only country in the world.
Petroleum doesnt spoil. Petroleum is sold.
Nocioni: To whom?
To Asia, to Europe. The Chinese petroleum industry has asked for an
increase in their quota with Venezuela. We cant, because we make up part of
the OPEC quota. We sell 1,500,000 barrels of oil per day to the United
States. It wouldnt cost us much to sell it elsewhere. Brazil imports oil.
They have to buy it from the Middle East. Why? Because for many years, the
strategy of the Venezuelan petroleum industry has been tied only to U. S.
interests. Contract obligations break in times of conflict.
Nocioni: How are the FTAA (Free Trade Area of the Americas) negotiations
going?
President Chavez Frias: The FTAA is dead. What remains is a cadaver. The
FTAA lightis a miniature, a cartoon. Brazil supports it.
The Brazilian proposal doesnt convince me. The FTAA light is just the tail
of the real FTAA. If we sign that agreement, Washington has [achieved part
of its goal] by dividing up the task. Lula, Kirchner, and I are not in one
line, but we do have an interesting area of agreement. Buenos Aires, for
the moment, has a very tranquil position, much more so than the Brazilians,
on the question of debt and capital flow.
Nocioni: What is the Bolivarian Revolution?
President Chavez Frias: A humanist revolution, constructed to satisfy the
necessities of human beings. It is the project of a Venezuela that is fully
independent politically, that works for the integration of South America.
It is the true State of Law. But, in the struggle between the strong and
the weak, liberty oppresses and justice liberates. Liberty without equality
doesnt make sense. The oligarchy never respected the laws. For that reason,
they hate me; because I am constructing a State of Law that guarantees
political and social equality.
Nocioni: What are the concrete results of your revolutionary project?
President Chavez Frias: To have constructed a counterpower. Here, the poor
are coming into power.
It is the only way that I know how to fight poverty. Popular committees
have formed in many parts of the country. It is not merely a figurative
power. We have passed a law to give 20% of a rich national fund, the
Intergovernmental Fund for Decentralization (FIDES), to community
organizations, funds that until now were distributed by governors and
mayors. This is not a substitution of powers. It is a combination of
constituted power with the constituent. The truth defends the people when
they take power. Look what happened the 13th of April [2002]: the people
overthrew the government of the coup leaders while my soldiers were
returning me to Caracas in a helicopter. I was almost praying. I was
landing at the palace from which I had been taken 48 hours before, and I
saw it under siege by people and bare hands. There were thousands. I looked
at them from above and said, Look what these people have done! They have
taken back their government.It is a moral bond that joins us. I live for
the people. That day, the people of Caracas said, This palace is mine.
It will be hard for the oligarchs to take from the people what the people
have learned to feel is theirs.
Nocioni: Your adversaries would insist that you have constructed more than
a counterpower; that you avoid the poor people; that you speak to the
people of Caracas only using your skills of persuasion, because you dont
have any intention of leaving this palace. How do you respond?
President Chavez Frias: The power that the people have in their hands is
not symbolic. It wasnt because of my beautiful words that the people took
to the streets of Caracas one day after the coup detat.
Nocioni: Do you think that you inspire confidence in the middle class?
President Chavez Frias: To one part. They dont need to love me. But I feel
that an important part of the middle class, damaged by the effects of
globalization, is coming around. The Venezuelan Conindustria
[Confederation] of small and medium sized businesses is with us.
Nocioni: Do you see Trojan horses in your revolution?
President Chavez Frias: Yes. The oligarchy has me under siege. Today, I saw
a photo of myself from 1999, and I was scared. On one side is Peña
(metropolitan mayor of Caracas; now a fierce anti-Chavista). On the other,
Cisneros (millionaire leader of the opposition), who wants to infiltrate in
many ways. He didnt succeed personally, but he has placed his men in
governmental positions. I have been surrounded by government infiltrators.
The MAS (political party that arose from the Communist Party, but now in
the opposition) succeeded in imposing several Ministers. They have done a
lot of damage. I cant say that we are free, but we are in the process of
freeing ourselves.
Inefficiency and corruption are the traps that have been set for our
government.
Nocioni: Bureaucracy isnt the problem?
President Chavez Frias: The Public Administration is full of people
controlled by the opposition, and since I dont want to cry one day because
of something I could have done, I question everyone who is around me. I
demand changes.
Nocioni: Are you surprised by the two faces of the [Venezuelan] Ambassador
to the United Nations, who had just been named to your embassy in London?
President Chavez Frias: It didnt surprise me. I knew who he was.
Nocioni: If you knew, why didnt you get rid of him in time?
President Chavez Frias: We are in the process of cleaning this country, but
we need time. To be betrayed helps, if one survives.
Nocioni: You have given George W. Bush a challenge: to see who stays in the
presidency the longest. Do you think youll beat him?
President Chavez Frias: For my part, Im prepared to resist with my
assemblies, with my people. Today I say, as did Shakespeare: Blow wind,
blow. I am ready to maneuver in your tempest.
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