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<h1 id="reader-title">Lori Berenson After Being Held 20 Years in
Peru: "My Objectives Were to Achieve a More Just Society"</h1>
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<h3>January 4, 2016<br>
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<div class="guest_information"><a
href="http://www.democracynow.org/appearances/lori_berenson"
data-ga-action="Story: Appearance">Lori Berenson</a>
<p>once-imprisoned U.S. activist who has returned
home from Peru after serving 20 years in prison
and on parole for collaborating with the Túpac
Amaru Revolutionary Movement.</p>
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<p>The once-imprisoned U.S. activist Lori Berenson has
returned home nearly two decades after being tried and
convicted of collaborating with the Túpac Amaru
Revolutionary Movement in Peru. Berenson is a former
student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who
left school to become an activist in the 1980s in El
Salvador during the Reagan years and then moved on to
Peru. In 1996, she was tried by a hooded military judge
while prosecutors used secret evidence against her, and
was ultimately convicted to a 20-year sentence. For
three years, she was held in the frigid Yanamayo prison
in the Andes mountains in an unheated, open-air cell
without running water. After a major outcry, she was
later transferred to the Socabaya prison in Arequipa,
Peru. Berenson was released on parole in 2010 but was
barred from leaving Peru for good until her sentence
expired a few weeks ago. Democracy Now! was the first to
interview Berenson in the Socabaya prison and broadcast
her voice to the U.S. public after she was sentenced,
and has long covered her case. She now joins us for her
first television interview as a free woman back home.</p>
<hr class="transcript">
<p class="fine_print">This is a rush transcript. Copy may
not be in its final form.</p>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> We end today’s
show with Lori Berenson, the once-imprisoned U.S.
activist who has returned home from Peru after nearly
two decades. Berenson is a former student at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology who left school to
become an activist in the ’80s in El Salvador during the
Reagan years, then moved on to Peru. In ’96, she was
convicted of collaborating with the Túpac Amaru
Revolutionary Movement in Peru. She was tried by a
hooded military judge. Prosecutors used secret evidence
against her. For three years, she was held at the frigid
Yanamayo prison in the Andes mountains in an unheated,
open-air cell without running water. After a major
outcry, she was transferred to the Socabaya prison in
Arequipa, Peru. Lori Berenson was released on parole in
2010 but barred from leaving Peru for good until her
sentence expired a few weeks ago. We are the first to
interview Lori in the Socabaya prison when she was there
in 1999 and now the first to have an extended interview
with her when she came home. I talked to her last week
and asked how it feels to be free.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> It’s
wonderful to be here. I’ve been on parole for many
years, which was similar to being free, but it’s nice
to be completely free.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And to be
back home in the United States for good.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> It’s nice
to be with my family. It’s nice to see old friends.
It’s nice to have the possibility of doing those
things.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> What brought
a young woman who was a freshman at <span
class="caps">MIT</span> first to Salvador and then
to Peru?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I decided
that I was not in agreement with the type of academia
work I’d be able—you know, you could, yeah, get a
degree, and then you become part of the system. And I
thought that becoming part of the system somehow—you
know, I mean, other people are able to use that to—and
to use it very well to the benefit of social justice,
but others tend to be absorbed by the system. And I
didn’t want to be part of—absorbed by the system. I
also, you know, had a very different—at the time, I
sort of started seeing that the world has a lot less
to do with what you learn in school than what you
learn in life, and that the meaning of degrees
is—shouldn’t be that. So it was—in part, it was my way
of saying, you know, I don’t believe in this type of
system. On the other hand, I wanted to support
processes that sought to change what at the time of
this—this was when the U.S. was supporting death
squads and supporting—you know, sending millions of
dollars in military aid to bomb the civilian
population in El Salvador. So that was the context in
which I decided to get involved. It was a very
different context than when I go to Peru, but it’s
certainly in the case of El Salvador, that was a
fundamental reason that brought me to that, was: How
could my government, that talks about democracy, be
doing this?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And so, you
went to Peru. And how soon after you were in Peru that
you were arrested?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I was
arrested a year later.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Explain what
the <span class="caps">MRTA</span> was.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> The <span
class="caps">MRTA</span> is an organization that
basically followed the example of the guerrilla
movements of the 1960s in Peru and the rest of the
continent, really, the national liberation struggles.
It forms out of different leftist organizations that
actually were participating in the efforts to return
to democracy in the early—the late '70s and early
’80s. And they form an alternative guerrilla movement
to what is the better known, the Shining Path, which
had emerged publicly in 1980. And it was a small
organization, very similar to the organizations I am
more familiar with in Central America. And when I got
to Peru, I understood, in the case of the <span
class="caps">MRTA</span>, they were also—it's an
organization—at the time that I got there, there was
nothing—no armed activities going on. And it was also
an organization that seemed to be looking for a way
out.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> It was
deemed a terrorist organization by Peru?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Well,
everything was called terrorism in Peru.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> As well as
the Shining Path.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Yes, it
was. Yes.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And by the
United States.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> At the
time, I presume so. There wasn’t a terrorist list. The
terrorist list came out, I believe, in '98, if I'm not
mistaken. But at the time of my arrival in Peru, it
was not on any formal list.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> What was it
about the <span class="caps">MRTA</span> that you
were drawn to, that got you involved?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> They were
very similar to the organizations I had been familiar
with in Central America. But more than that, it was my
sense that they were in a very difficult situation, a
lot of people in prison, and they were looking for a
way out.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> What do you
mean, "a way out"?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> A way
out—you know, in El Salvador, there was a peace
process. In other countries, there—in Guatemala, there
was a peace process, that, you know, there are moments
in which you say, "OK, so how do we resolve the
situation?" And it was a situation of dictatorship. So
what do you do when you have an autocratic—or you want
to call it dictator or autocratic government, that was
not at all democratic? So, it wasn’t as if you could
say, "Hey, we want to lay down our weapons and give
ourselves in." I think they were looking for a way to
do that, to some—to some extent. I just—I didn’t
realize it until after the embassy takeover, analyzing
that, that that was how they were planning to find a
way out, because when they took over the embassy, one
of the things they talked about was national dialogue.
You know, it was a way—I see it—you know, in
retrospect, I think they were—that was the way out
they were looking at.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Explain the
government at the time.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> So, in
1990—well, Alberto Fujimori wins the elections of 1990
and applies shock—a shock program, you know, and
applies a lot of dirty war tactics. There was a lot of
intelligence used to carry out disappearances, in very
selective disappearances, but, you know, talking about
thousands of people were killed, and—during that
period. And in 1992, he has a self-coup, where he
closes Congress, he closes—restrictions on the press.
It’s a series of, you know, lack of rights to protest.
And that is the Peru I knew. So by the time I had
gotten there, they had opened what they called—was
it—the <span class="caps">CCD</span>. It was a—some
form of congress. It was not the form that had always
existed, but it was whatever they—whatever he’s
invent—whatever he invented. And there were elections;
however, it was still within the framework of a
constitution that was not—you know, it was a
neoliberalism, and it was not exactly democracy.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> So let’s go
back to November 30th, 1995. There are many people who
are watching right now who were not even born then.
So, talk about what happened, why you were arrested
and what happened to you.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> OK, well,
on that day, I was actually—in that time, I was doing
some work in—as a journalist, and I was—I had gone to
Congress. I was following a series of debates,
actually a very important debate on narco houses or
something, and I left—walking down the street, took a
bus, and I was pulled off the bus and shoved into a
car.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> By?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong>
Un-uniformed policemen. And I was taken to a large
office, which I later learned was the intelligence
police office in [inaudible]—</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> The <span
class="caps">DINET</span>?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> That was
the <span class="caps">DINCOTE</span>. And I was—from
there, I was taken to the house which I had helped
rent a time earlier. And the shootout started. I was
there all night when they were shooting—during the
shootout, but I was in the police car.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> The police
held you in the car as a shootout took place—</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Oh, yeah.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> —between the
police and the MRTA—</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Yes, I was
there. Yes, uh-huh.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> —at the
house that you had rented.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> And then I
was—after that, I was detained. I was tried by a
hooded military tribunal—that is, you know, not faced.
Very limited access to legal protection. Lawyers were
allowed in. They didn’t have access to the files.
Statements were made under duress. There was a wounded
woman who was forced to declare in a very difficult
state. So, it was a difficult situation for all of
those who were detained at the time. We were about
20-some-odd people at that time. And then I was
sentenced to life in prison as a leader of the <span
class="caps">MRTA</span>, which the—basically, the
figure in—to be tried by a military tribunal was that
if you weren’t detained in combat, then in order—you
had to be a leader to be tried by a military tribunal.
So they decided to call me a leader. So that was
interesting.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> When you
were brought out to the press is this is the image
Peruvians have of you, and anyone in the rest of the
world, for the next few decades.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Yes.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Explain what
you were told as you were brought out to the press.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> OK, I was
told that there was no microphone and that if I wanted
to be heard, I had to raise my voice. And I guess at
the time I didn’t think of the consequences. I mean, I
think if I had said the same thing without looking
angry saying it, they wouldn’t have been able to use
it. But, you know, it’s the use of images. You take
images from below, towards—above, people look very
big. And you can always catch an image when someone
has their mouth open. So, you know, having the mouth
open is enough. Regardless of even if I spoke
silently, you know, very quietly, if I had my mouth
open, that would have been enough. But they were able
to use that image for—’til now.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And you were
told you had a very small amount of time, like a
minute, to say whatever you needed to say?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I believe
so. I don’t remember that exactly.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> What did you
say?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I said—</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And you had
to speak in Spanish, of course.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> OK. Well, I
said that the <span class="caps">MRTA</span> wasn’t
a—I didn’t think it was a terrorist organization. And
I said that it was—if they existed, it was because
there was a lot of injustice in the country, and
saying basically that if I was going to have to pay
for that, I would. And that’s what I did.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> So, you were
tried. Explain what this courtroom was like. What does
it mean to be tried before a hooded judge?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I don’t
know if ours was similar to—I know of other cases that
were actually rather different, but it was basically a
three-phase trial. The first phase was you were
interrogated by the police, and then at some point the
military started intervening. It was very difficult to
tell which was the difference at the time. You know,
these are things that I might have seen differently if
I had known more. But after that—that was the first
phase—we were sentenced. We were all put in a room
with hooded judges and hooded—surrounded by soldiers.
We were given the sentences. And then we were given
two—I believe two appeal trials in these rooms with
distorted—I think one was in front of a judge, but
there was—they tended to use these rooms with like
distorted sound, so you’d be looking at a mirror. It
was just sort of unusual to have distorted sound and
images. And I think they filmed. And by the third, you
know, sentence, they confirmed the life sentence. They
changed some of the charges along the way, if I’m not
mistaken. But it was—it was all preposterous. It was
based really on I’m not sure what—a lot of
imagination.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And what did
they charge you with, and what were you convicted of?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> It was
treason. I don’t really remember—as I said, I was
first convicted of being a leader of the <span
class="caps">MRTA</span>, so I don’t remember the
exact charges. But they were—it was a long—it was a
laundry list.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> I wanted to
go back for one moment to the time that I <a
href="http://www.democracynow.org/2000/9/6/exclusive_lori_berenson_speaks">interviewed
you in the Socabaya prison</a>. This was back in
1999.</p>
<blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Did they
present any evidence at the trial?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> No. In
the actual trial? No, absolutely nothing.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Are you
innocent of the charges?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Yes, of
the charges. Yes, I’m innocent of all the charges
they’ve made against me.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Which
brings us to the U.S. and what the U.S. is doing
here around your case, the U.S. government. What is
the U.S. doing? Are they helping you?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> There has
been some pressure at certain times, but not heavy
pressure. Not heavy enough pressure, at least,
because I’m still here.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Do you
think if they did put pressure, you wouldn’t be
here? I mean, the U.S. administration?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I mean, I
think, in the sense of more than the Congress in
itself. I mean, all the military aid they give them
and that kind of support and the patting on the back
of Fujimori every time that he does anything. I
think he feels like he’s fine.</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> That was
1999. Can you describe that time in the Socabaya
prison? You had been there—you had been imprisoned at
that point for like three years, first at Yanamayo and
then at the Socabaya prison.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> The thing
with Socabaya, I think, if I’m not mistaken, the
interview was when I was still in isolation, so I
think it was difficult because I wasn’t allowed to
talk to anyone. It was—you know, in that sense, it
was—you know, we weren’t allowed access to the media.
We weren’t allowed access to information. It was a
very isolating experience. That is what I most
remember about Socabaya, was that aspect.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> And to
people—of course, there have been millions of people
imprisoned in the United States. But you now were
imprisoned for about 15 years.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Mm-hmm.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Can you talk
to an American audience about what that experience
meant?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Well, I
think it’s important, particularly in the United
States, but it’s also important in Peru, the issue of
prisons as a space of justice or as a space of
punishment. I think we’d have a much healthier society
if we used imprisonment sparingly, just so that people
could learn from imprisonment and become—have an
opportunity to become—to do something else or to
learn—to learn to become productive—have the
opportunity to be productive citizens. Unfortunately,
in the United States and elsewhere, prisons are
disproportionately—disproportionately with people of
lower socioeconomic status. There’s race and class
involved. It’s an issue in which you just see—it’s
like social—it’s social struggle on lines. You know,
there are a lot of kids who get into gangs because
that’s the only option they see. And those kids could
do other things if they had other options. So prisons
could be a space in which that could happen. Or what
usually happens is they just get thrown in, they get
tortured, they get beat up on, and they—basically, if
they’re not killed there, they’re not really—they
don’t really have a chance. So when they get out, they
don’t have a chance. So I don’t—what kind of world do
we live in, in which we exclude people instead of
trying to find ways to include them? I mean, you know,
and so that happens—happens here, happens in Peru.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Dennis Jett
is quoted as saying—he was the ambassador—</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Mm-hmm,
yes.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> —to Peru at
the time—"What leverage do we have over Peru?" he
asked. "I think this is a colonial, somewhat-racist
mentality that these countries are always wrong, and
all we have to do is apply pressure on any
underdeveloped country." He said, "There is no way
anyone can look at her story," referring to you, "and
conclude anything other than she knowingly, willingly
and enthusiastically worked for a terrorist
organization." That quote from just last week.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Mm-hmm.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> The
ambassador at the time of your arrest in Peru.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Mm-hmm.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Your
response?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Well, you
know, he has been very consistent in his responses on
this. I do not agree with him. I do not think there
was overwhelming proof of anything that he says. But
look, that’s his political position. It was not the
position—not everyone was patting Fujimori on the
back. He was. Not every—not all the ambassadors in
Peru were doing that.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Ambassador
Jett also demanded I be fired for having interviewed
you in the prison. But your evaluation of Amnesty
International saying something like 53 percent of the
violence in the ’80s could be attributed to the
Peruvian government, 46 percent of the killing to
Shining Path, 1 percent to the <span class="caps">MRTA</span>?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> That’s—the
Truth Commission came up with similar statistics. I
think it’s really hard, because, first of all, I think
the Truth Commission was developed as to start a
process of memory and not to be the only thing that
would come out, and it like closed the book. So, you
know, their conclusion was actually that the Shining
Path had committed 54 percent, and something like 35
percent to the state and 10 percent unknown, 1.5
percent to the <span class="caps">MRTA</span>, which
seems a bit high, but that’s—it could be. I don’t
know. I do think that if—you know, the problems with
understanding what happens also depends on how and
when you ask it. If you go to a community in which the
military is still there, it’s highly probable they
will not say the military did it. So, you know, those
types of things, I think, will always be a problem
when looking for truth. But I’m sure—you know, there
have been horrific things have happened in Peru. And I
think that’s why I say take responsibility for having
collaborated with an organization that has committed
crimes. I think that is—and that’s why I was in
prison. So I think, you know, yes, it was secondary
collaboration, I wasn’t involved in any specific act,
but, yes, I do—I do take my responsibility. And I
think those—at least in the case of the <span
class="caps">MRTA</span>, all the leadership has
taken responsibility for their acts. They are—that’s
because it’s necessary. You know, that’s how—it’s like
I said. It’s unfortunate that that is not happening on
all sides.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> I want to
play a clip of your mother, Rhoda Berenson, and your
father, Mark Berenson.</p>
<blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">RHODA</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> We’re
asking everybody to remind President Bush what he
said in March and to remind him he’s under an
obligation: If a U.S. citizen is wrongfully held in
another country, there’s a U.S. statute that says he
must do everything in his power to release her. And
the commission has essentially said Lori Berenson is
wrongfully held.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">MARK</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> And this
commission consists of seven respected
internationally legal scholars and human rights
scholars from seven different countries. President
Bush, Lori is wrongfully held. It’s time now to show
backbone and strength, and have the moral courage to
do the right thing. If Ambassador Negroponte said a
week ago that America takes care of its own, Lori
Berenson is one of your own. She has suffered. She
has been wronged. You know it. Secretary Powell
knows it. Every person in this country of goodwill
and understanding knows Lori Berenson has been
wronged, and it’s time to bring her home.</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> What did
that mean to you, the way your parents rallied around
not only you, but rallied support in the United
States, not only for your—around your imprisonment,
but for the condition of people in Peru?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I mean, I
was very surprised. I just wasn’t—you know, I don’t
come from a very political family. I didn’t expect
their dedication. And to some extent, it was—I felt—I
felt very badly for it. I still do, to a good extent.
But I’m very grateful for it. They did an amazing—had
amazing effort, despite the fact we didn’t have great
communication. I think it was very difficult the first
years for them, because they didn’t have access to a
lot of information. They didn’t know what was really
happening. And that made it—so, some of the confusions
perhaps in the way they interpreted things has to do
with the lack of communication. So I think
they—despite that, they did an amazing—an amazing
thing.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> It’s 20
years later. You have been in Peru, basically—I don’t
know if you call it under house arrest, but you
were—you were not allowed to leave Peru from 2010
until now. And now you were just allowed to leave.
Would you do things the same way, if we went back 20
years, but you know what you know now?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Yes and no.
I mean, when I go back to thinking like about
education, if I had learned another skills, I might
have been able to do some of the work I—maybe
different types of work directly with populations,
that would have made my life very different. In that
sense, I think I would have chosen to learn a little
more before going to do things, you know, learn a
skill that would have been more useful. But in terms
of doing it, I can’t go—I can’t deny my life. My life
is what it was, or what it is. And I—I mean, yes,
there are things that when I reflect upon what
happened and say, you know, I—and that’s part of the
reason why I take responsibility for my actions, and I
apologize, because it’s like I do acknowledge that
whether or not I am directly responsible for certain
actions, there was horrific bloodshed in Peru, and I
am very sorry it happened. So, in that sense,
understanding how—if I had known I was going to come
and symbolize that, I might have thought twice before
speaking, because, you know, it’s hard to symbolize
horror. But on the other hands, it’s like, you know, I
wasn’t—the objectives of—certainly my own objectives
and others’ objectives were not to create horrific
bloodshed, either. They were—you know, they were to
achieve a more just society. And like I said, I think
it’s important that those who have been involved on
any side take responsibility for what they have done.
And most—you know, certainly on the side of the left,
people paid, been in prison for a long time, and some
are still there, whereas in the case of the government
forces, they continue to live in entire, total
impunity.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Although,
interestingly, Alberto Fujimori, the president of
Peru, is in jail. He used to wave your passport and
say "feminista terrorista."</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> I didn’t
know that.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> He would
carry it with him.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Yeah.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> But he ends
up in jail.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> No, that is
a bit ironic, yes.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> So, let’s
end with the issue of memory, something you’re very
interested in, as you move forward in this country.
What does it mean to you? And what does acknowledgment
and understanding the past—what do you think has to
happen?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">LORI</span> <span
class="caps">BERENSON</span>:</strong> Well, I
think in any country, and this includes the U.S., if
we deny that things happened or try to paint it over
as if it wasn’t that way, then the problems are more
likely to either recur or at least just continue to be
problems. If you start acknowledging them and say,
"Hey, let’s get a handle on this. We’ve got to see
where our—what the cause"—you know, the root cause of
violence in Peru, it has to do with structural
violence. I mean, you know, regardless of whoever
started first—it’s not who started first. It’s like
why on Earth would something—would the violence have
been so extreme, had there not been the type of
structural violence that existed in Peru? It was
semi-feudal, in many ways, its production, but not
just production. It has to do with the social system
or racism, of exclusion, that existed into the 20th
century. So, you know, that’s not unique to Peru, but
I think in—I think what is told for—you know, should
be told in general in the world is that, you know,
it’s better if you look—if you look at things, you
know, try to sit back and take a look at them, I think
you could do much more than putting labels. When you
put labels on people, you’re saying it’s the us-them.
And when you say us-them, it’s dangerous, because it
makes you think that you’re somehow superior to a
them. And I think that’s one of the things that I
really think came out in Peru, particularly in the
case of my case and other people, is like you want the
"them" label, because you can sort of—all of your
guilt, you can sort of transfer to other people. And
it’s like, that’s not useful. And you wind up
having—you know, violence can escalate. It
doesn’t—it’s not productive, doesn’t lead to anything.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><strong><span class="caps">AMY</span> <span
class="caps">GOODMAN</span>:</strong> That’s Lori
Berenson, the once-imprisoned U.S. activist, home now
after spending nearly two decades in prison and on
parole in Peru. To see our <a
href="http://www.democracynow.org/topics/lori_berenson">coverage
of Lori</a> over the years, go to democracynow.org.</p>
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