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style="display:none;font-size:1px;color:#333333;line-height:1px;max-height:0px;max-width:0px;opacity:0;overflow:hidden;">In
an exclusive interview, Meshaal makes the case that Trump should
definitively end Israel\u2019s multi-decade war of annihilation and
open a new era in U.S.-Palestine relations.</div>
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<h1 class="post-title published title-X77sOw"
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href="https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2510348&post_id=181695740&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=lvppb&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjozNjc1MTU4MywicG9zdF9pZCI6MTgxNjk1NzQwLCJpYXQiOjE3NjU4MTk0MDAsImV4cCI6MTc2ODQxMTQwMCwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI1MTAzNDgiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.Fcy-EY8d2aXzf3DndDNxDdgn8KfjzxNztZCTtIoXHAo"
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moz-do-not-send="true">Hamas Leader Khaled
Meshaal: Trump Should Heed the Growing Calls
Within MAGA and Reject Israel\u2019s Agenda</a></h1>
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style="direction: auto;text-align: start;unicode-bidi: isolate;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: normal;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 4px 0 0;color: #777777;line-height: 24px;font-size: 18px;margin-top: 12px;">In
an exclusive interview, Meshaal makes the case
that Trump should definitively end Israel\u2019s
multi-decade war of annihilation and open a new
era in U.S.-Palestine relations.</h3>
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href="https://substack.com/@jawaahmad" moz-do-not-send="true">Jawa Ahmad</a></div>
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datetime="2025-12-15T17:22:37.585Z">Dec 15, 2025</time></div>
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alt="" height="967" width="1456"
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style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Khaled
Meshaal in Doha, Qatar, on August 10, 2014.
Photo: KARIM JAAFAR/AFP via Getty Images.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">DOHA,
QATAR\u2014If President Donald Trump wants to achieve
stability in the Middle East, he should put an end
to Israeli interference in U.S. policy toward
Palestine, senior Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal told
Drop Site. Instead, Meshaal said, the U.S. should
enter into a genuine process of direct
negotiations with Hamas and other Palestinian
political factions aimed at establishing friendly,
bilateral relations.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cUnfortunately,
one of the problems with the U.S. administration
is that it prioritizes Israel\u2019s interests more
than the United States\u2019 own interests. Even
Trump\u2019s people\u2014MAGA\u2014came to realize that Israel is
a burden on them, restricting and harming U.S.
interests. I am simply calling on the American
people and the U.S. administration to judge based
on America\u2019s interests, not Israel\u2019s,\u201d Meshaal
said. \u201cIf they look at us even for a moment in a
fair and impartial way, they will see that the
Palestinian people are oppressed under occupation,
and they have the right to resist\u2014unless America
steps in and forces Israel to withdraw, in which
case we would thank America.\u201d He added, \u201cWhen the
world fails to help you, you have no choice but to
resist the occupier until you force it to
withdraw.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Meshaal,
who is currently the head of Hamas outside of
Palestine, was a founding member of the movement
and is one of its most experienced and
internationally well-known leaders. In the decade
before Hamas launched in 1987, Meshaal was part of
a group that created the architecture for the
formation of a new Islamic political liberation
movement in Palestine. That process crystallized
in the formation of the Islamic Resistance
Movement, commonly known by its Arabic acronym
HAMAS. After the Israeli assassination of Hamas\u2019s
spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004,
Meshaal was widely recognized as the political
leader of the movement and he served as head of
its political bureau from 1996-2017.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">He
reiterated that Hamas is prepared to enter into a
long-term ceasefire agreement with Israel, backed
by a pledge that Hamas would store its weapons and
commit to end all military operations targeting
Israel. Meshaal also said that Hamas is ready to
work closely with the U.S. and the international
community in creating a stable security
environment inside Gaza that will enable the
reconstruction of the enclave, prepare the ground
for democratic elections, and create the political
conditions for negotiations addressing the future
of a Palestinian state.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cThe
pragmatic American mindset, and President Trump\u2019s
genuine concern to achieve stability and prevent
Gaza from remaining a continual bleeding wound
that worries the world and deeply strikes the
human conscience [can] create an opportunity for
stability,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cHamas provides this
opportunity with real guarantees and a record of
commitment.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Hamas
remains a popular political actor within Palestine
and has served as the only governing authority in
Gaza for two decades\u2014a fact that, Meshaal said,
Trump needs to consider. While Hamas has offered
to relinquish its governance of the enclave in
favor of a technocratic committee of non-partisan
Palestinians, Meshaal warned that attempting to
impose a sweeping ban on anyone affiliated with
Hamas from participating in the stabilization and
rebuilding of society in Gaza would be
counterproductive.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cAny
attempt to establish a non-Palestinian authority
inside Gaza is first unacceptable and second
doomed to fail,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cAny
non-Palestinian authority\u2014meaning foreign
authorities or foreign forces inside Gaza\u2014would be
treated by Palestinians as an occupying authority,
as an occupying power. This would automatically
create a state of conflict because Palestinians
would not accept it. Why would Palestinians reject
Israeli occupation but accept another form of
foreign occupation?\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">During
the sit-down interview with Drop Site in Doha last
week, Meshaal argued that the current moment
offers an opportunity for the U.S. and Europe to
realign the Western approach to the Middle East.
\u201cThe Palestinian people are not against American
interests. We are opposed to those who interfere
in our affairs and to those who support our enemy.
But we are ready to open up to America, to Europe,
and to the world,\u201d he said. \u201cWhat we will not
accept is occupation, guardianship, or support for
an occupier. We criticize the United States not
because it is the United States\u2014no\u2014but because it
provides Israel, our occupier, with complete
support in all forms. Today, there is an
opportunity for transformation, and I believe it
is in the interest of the West to sponsor a
fundamental change in [the approach to] Palestine,
just as it eventually recognized the truth in
South Africa and withdrew its support from that
apartheid regime.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Citing
Trump\u2019s embrace of Ahmed Al-Sharaa, the former Al
Qaeda operative turned anti-Assad rebel leader who
took power as interim president of Syria in
January, Meshaal said the U.S. should pursue a
similar path with Palestinian political leaders.
\u201cWhy does the U.S. administration give Ahmad
Al\u2011Sharaa this opportunity but does not give it to
Hamas and the Palestinian resistance forces? It
does not even give it today to [Palestinian
Authority President] Mahmoud Abbas, who is not
accused of terrorism,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cIt is in the
interest of the United States and Western capitals
to pursue positive engagement with Hamas and with
the Palestinian people, because we are the future,
and this occupation will become part of the past.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">A
former physics teacher, the 69-year old Meshaal
has spent his life building Hamas. In 1997, a year
after Meshaal was named head of Hamas\u2019s political
bureau, the newly-elected Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu ordered Mossad agents to
assassinate him in Amman, Jordan. Posing as
Canadian tourists, the two operatives sprayed
poison into his ear as he exited his car. One of
Meshaal\u2019s bodyguards, with the assistance of
Jordanian police, captured the Israeli agents.
King Hussein subsequently threatened to put the
spies on trial and potentially execute them if
Meshaal died and to end Jordan\u2019s peace treaty with
Israel. In response, Netanyahu dispatched the head
of Mossad, Danny Yatom, to fly to Amman with the
antidote to the poison. Hussein also secured the
release of Yassin, Hamas\u2019s spiritual leader, as
part of the deal.</p>
<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;">
<table class="image-wrapper" width="100%"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
data-component-name="Image2ToDOMStatic"
style="mso-padding-alt: 1em 0 1.6em;">
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<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
<td class="content" align="left"
width="1200" style="text-align: center;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/d4a5e2eb-1a73-447c-9307-6e09375044e3?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
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alt="" width="550"
height="382.2802197802198"
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!7QlZ!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9205d813-79e6-4208-88a9-ebca665d3a74_2048x1424.jpeg"
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<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Sheikh
Ahmed Yassin, center, the spiritual leader of
Hamas, with Khaled Meshaal, right, and Mousa
Abu Marzouk in Amman, Jordan, in 1997. (Photo
by KHALIL MAZRAAWI/AFP via Getty Images)</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Meshaal
has been widely credited with being one of the
architects of Hamas\u2019s 2006 winning campaign in the
Palestinian national elections. In 2012,
Meshaal\u2014who had spent his life in exile since
1967\u2014made a triumphant visit to Palestine where he
received a hero\u2019s welcome in the streets of Gaza.
Meshaal\u2019s last act as Hamas\u2019s political leader
came on May 1, 2017 when he presided over the
public unveiling of a 42-point manifesto that
stated that Hamas was willing to accept a
Palestinian state along the borders that existed
prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWithout
compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity
and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights,\u201d
it stated, \u201cHamas considers the establishment of a
fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state,
with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of
the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the
refugees and the displaced to their homes from
which they were expelled, to be a formula of
national consensus.\u201d The document also sharpened
language defining the national liberation
character of armed struggle in Palestine,
denounced anti-semitism and clarified that the
enemy of the Palestinian cause was a \u201ccolonial
Zionist project.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">While
the manifesto did not officially replace Hamas\u2019s
1988 charter, its language on accepting what would
amount to a two-state solution was seen as a
significant overture to the international
community. In the ensuing years, Meshaal continued
to represent Hamas internationally, but the center
of leadership within the movement shifted to Yahya
Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh\u2014both of whom Israel
assassinated in the summer of 2024. Over the
course of the past two years of the Gaza genocide,
Meshaal receded from prominence and has seldom
spoken or appeared in public.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>That
dynamic has changed as of late. Within minutes
of Israel\u2019s attack on </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/76b31925-3389-4be2-b64d-eb5f58afffe7?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">Hamas\u2019s offices in Doha
on September 9</a><span>, Israeli media outlets
and prominent social media accounts were
circulating reports that Meshaal and other
Palestinian leaders had been assassinated. Those
rumors were false. While the strike killed the
son of Hamas leader Khalil al-Hayya, and four
other office staff, it did not kill any
negotiators or political officials.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">And
now, in the aftermath of Trump\u2019s October Gaza
deal, Meshaal has reemerged as a prominent voice
representing Hamas and outlining its positions on
a range of issues. He has denounced Israel\u2019s
pervasive violations of the \u201cceasefire\u201d agreement
and its continued killing of not just Palestinian
civilians, but also members of the armed
resistance who are direct parties to the
ceasefire. Since October 10, Israel has killed
nearly 400 Palestinians and wounded more than
1,000 and continues to block the agreed upon
delivery of life essentials. </p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cSome
in the world think the first phase was excellent
or fully implemented\u2014it was not. While the war, in
terms of total annihilation, has stopped, Israeli
violations continue,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cTherefore,
our call as Palestinians, not just Hamas, is that
Israel must be held accountable for all agreements
of the first phase before moving quickly to the
second phase. As Hamas committed to the first
phase requirements, Hamas, along with all
Palestinian forces, is committed to the
requirements of the second phase through this
serious dialogue with the mediators to reach sound
approaches\u2014not as Netanyahu wants, but as agreed
upon with the mediators.\u201d </p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Meshaal
has also outlined Hamas\u2019s position that while it
is open to a \u201cfreezing\u201d or storing of its
defensive weapons, it will not agree to
disarmament unless it is in the context of
establishing a Palestinian army or security force
capable of defending itself from Israeli
aggression.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Last
week, Netanyahu mentioned Meshaal by name in a
speech, saying that Meshaal\u2019s rejection of
Palestinian disarmament would be confronted. \u201cThis
mission will be completed either the easy way or
the hard way,\u201d Netanyahu said on December 9. A day
later, Meshaal sat for an hourlong special
interview on Al Jazeera Arabic and Hamas widely
distributed his remarks across its official
platforms.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>Meshaal
is the second most popular hypothetical
candidate for president of Palestine, according
to a </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/9c00cde2-9c41-4a1e-b85c-a4fc39a86a38?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">recent poll</a><span>,
should the Palestinian Authority allow fair
elections. Marwan Barghouti, who has ranked as
the most popular potential leader for years, is
currently imprisoned on multiple life terms in
Israeli prison. \u201cWe hope that Marwan will be
released, that he will have the opportunity to
engage in national struggle and political work,
and that he will be a candidate\u2014this is his
natural right,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cHamas also has
the right to nominate whomever it chooses,
whether Khaled Meshaal or someone else.\u201d</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>Abbas,
the 90-year-old head of the Palestinian
Authority, disagrees. He issued a \u201cdecree law\u201d
on November 19 </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/ba5e37e4-dd89-43e5-ac60-bbbbad538851?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">that would ban</a><span>
Hamas-affiliated candidates and other
pro-resistance Palestinians from running in
local elections. It would also prohibit
candidates who do not officially recognize the
Oslo agreements and other deals that are widely
seen among Palestinians as dangerous
capitulations. The law, which was pushed by
Western countries but widely denounced in
Palestine, is almost certain to be applied on a
national level, according to a source who has
seen a draft version of the proposed decree. The
source added that there is language in the draft
that would also prohibit any party with an armed
wing from participating in elections.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cThe
democracy desired in Palestine, as is
unfortunately practiced in some countries in the
region and the world, is that elections should
produce predetermined results acceptable to those
holding them. If they do not, they are canceled.
That is not democracy,\u201d said Meshaal. \u201cIf you
respect the will of the people, allow them to
express it freely at the ballot box. Today,
everyone knows\u2014even after the destruction in Gaza
following two long years of the crime of genocide
committed by Israel\u2014that the Palestinian
conscience, awareness, and, I believe, the
Palestinian voter, if given the opportunity, would
vote for the resistance.\u201d</p>
<h3 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 1.375em;"><strong>Hamas\u2019s
Message to Trump: \u201cPower is responsibility\u201d</strong></h3>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Drop
Site News met with Meshaal in person on Thursday
in Doha. The interview was conducted as the Trump
administration is pushing forward with its plan to
deploy an International Stabilization Force (ISF)
to Gaza and, in recent days, has been intensifying
its pressure on both European and Islamic nations
to commit troops. Several Arab and other Muslim
countries have said they will not join a mission
to disarm or battle Palestinian resistance
fighters.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWe
should be realistic and nuanced in expecting
certain things,\u201d said Turkish Foreign Minister
Hakan Fidan in an appearance on December 6 at the
Doha Forum in Qatar. \u201cOur first objective in
deploying the ISF is to separate Palestinians from
the Israelis.\u201d His remarks were echoed by Egypt\u2019s
foreign minister Badr Abdelatty. \u201cWe need to
deploy this force as soon as possible on the
ground because one party, which is Israel, is
every day violating the ceasefire and claiming
that the other side is violating, so we need
monitors,\u201d Abdelatty said.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Netanyahu
has dismissed the notion that an international
force would be willing, or able, to implement a
disarmament operation. He suggested that Israel
may eventually launch its own military campaign in
the name of disarming Gaza, an objective its
forces failed to achieve during more than two
years of scorched earth war.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Despite
clear opposition from its Arab and Muslim allies,
the Trump administration continues to insist the
ISF will enter Gaza with a mission to disarm
Hamas. \u201cWe specifically put language in there that
said, \u2018by all means necessary,\u2019\u201d U.S. Ambassador
to the UN Mike Waltz told Israel\u2019s Channel 12 on
December 11, referring to the UN Security Council
resolution passed on November 17. \u201cNow, obviously
that\u2019ll be a conversation with each country. Those
rules of engagement are ongoing. I\u2019ll tell you
this, President Trump has repeatedly said Hamas
will disarm one way or another, the easy way or
the hard way.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>Last
week, U.S. officials met with their European
counterparts in Tel Aviv to discuss the ISF and
reportedly threatened to permit an indefinite
Israeli military presence if EU nations did not
offer troops. \u201cThe message was: \u2018If you are not
ready to go to Gaza, don\u2019t complain that the IDF
stays,\u2019\u201d one European diplomat told </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/79383a65-3a80-42ec-83ae-636a13ba670a?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">Axios</a><span>.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">While
citing substantial objections over the Trump Gaza
plan\u2019s vague yet sweeping nature, Meshaal said
that the 20-point document nonetheless contains
key concepts that Hamas, in principle, would
accept. Meshaal cautioned, however, that the
common ground between Hamas and Trump is
undermined by attempts to impose foreign rule over
Gaza, deploy an international force to disarm the
Palestinian resistance, rather than serve as
peacekeepers, or to enact policies that would
enable Israel to continue its war of annihilation
under the guise of a \u201cpeace deal.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">He
also reiterated that Palestinian negotiators never
agreed to disarmament or any of the terms in the
\u201csecond phase\u201d of a deal, despite U.S. and Israeli
claims to the contrary. The negotiators from Hamas
made clear privately and publicly in October that
they only had a mandate to negotiate a ceasefire
and exchange of captives and that all other issues
must be handled through a consensus process
involving all major Palestinian political
factions.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Hamas
negotiators had urged the U.S. and regional
mediators to approach the issue of disarmament
through technical negotiation, Meshaal said, and
not through edicts that seek to achieve a
surrender of the Palestinian liberation cause that
Israel could not win on the battlefield. During
the October negotiations, he noted, Hamas leaders
informed the mediators that sweeping demands for
immediate disarmament would sabotage a broader
agreement and undermine Trump\u2019s stated aim of
ending the war.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cWe
do not want to clash with anyone or confront
anyone, but we will not accept being forcibly
disarmed. We told them: if you want results, let
us look for a realistic approach that includes
guarantees,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cIn truth, the major
question is not the likelihood of the Palestinian
side\u2019s commitment, the problem lies with the
Israeli side\u2014because by its nature it is
treacherous, this is its history. Second, it is
the side that possesses lethal weaponry. The issue
is not how to protect the Israeli side\u2014it is the
occupier. The issue is how to protect the
Palestinian people, who are nearly defenseless.
The weapons of the resistance do not mean that we
are armed in the conventional sense, as states
are. We are a nearly defenseless people, and we
have sought weapons only to the extent possible in
order to protect ourselves and defend ourselves.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">In
launching his sweeping plan for Gaza, Trump was
able to marshal the endorsement of dozens of Arab
and Islamic countries, culminating in an
unprecedented UN Security Council resolution that
placed a fabricated stamp of legitimacy on an
agenda that many Palestinians see as doing
Israel\u2019s bidding and colonialist in nature.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">When
asked whether the actions of Arab and Islamic
states represented a betrayal of the Palestinian
cause, Meshaal struck a diplomatic tone. \u201cWhile
they try to play a role in supporting the
Palestinian people, standing by its cause or
stopping the war, they also [consider] economic
interests, arms purchases and other strategic
considerations,\u201d he said. \u201cSince the American
president is, in fact, a businessman, some
countries are trying to build relationships with
him that either serve their interests or protect
them from potential harm, because they fear
Trump\u2019s adventures and sudden moves, as we saw in
the past. This situation undoubtedly weakens
strong Arab and Islamic intervention to stop the
war.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Despite
the justifiable anger Palestinians may harbor
toward Arab and Islamic states for their lack of
intervention against Israel\u2019s genocide, Meshaal
emphasized, it is the U.S. that holds the only
leverage over Israel: \u201cYes, more is required from
Arabs and Muslims, but they are not the strongest
party. As you know, no one in the world is able to
compel Israel\u2014even Europeans do not do so, or
cannot do so.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">\u201cTherefore,
the responsibility of the United States is a
doubled responsibility, and power is
responsibility,\u201d Meshaal said. \u201cPresident Trump
and the American administration alone are capable
of compelling Israel and Netanyahu to respect the
agreements, so they bear this responsibility
before we assign responsibility to any regional or
international party.\u201d</p>
<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;">
<table class="image-wrapper" width="100%"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
data-component-name="Image2ToDOMStatic"
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<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><br>
</td>
<td class="content" align="left"
width="1200" style="text-align: center;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/bd1dd234-f91f-41a8-9011-153b64b9c5b4?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="position: relative;flex-direction: column;align-items: center;padding: 0;width: auto;height: auto;border: none;text-decoration: none;display: block;margin: 0;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
<img class="wide-image"
data-attrs="{"src":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/877be731-69ab-48e4-a99c-1bfe9e9693ea_1600x984.png","srcNoWatermark":null,"fullscreen":false,"imageSize":"large","height":895,"width":1456,"resizeWidth":1200,"bytes":null,"alt":null,"title":null,"type":null,"href":null,"belowTheFold":true,"topImage":false,"internalRedirect":null,"isProcessing":false,"align":"center","offset":false}"
alt="" width="550"
height="338.0837912087912"
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!U_TA!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F877be731-69ab-48e4-a99c-1bfe9e9693ea_1600x984.png"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;display: block;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;height: auto;margin-bottom: 0;width: auto !important;max-width: 100% !important;margin: 0 auto;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Drop
Site\u2019s Jeremy Scahill interviews senior Hamas
official Khaled Meshaal in Doha, Qatar on
December 11, 2025.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<h1 class="header-anchor-post"
style="position: relative;font-family: 'SF Pro Display',-apple-system-headline,system-ui,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,'Segoe UI',Roboto,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji','Segoe UI Symbol';font-weight: bold;-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased;-moz-osx-font-smoothing: antialiased;-webkit-appearance: optimizelegibility;-moz-appearance: optimizelegibility;appearance: optimizelegibility;margin: 1em 0 0.625em 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 1.16em;font-size: 2em;">Interview
With Khaled Meshaal</h1>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Thank you for taking
the time to speak with us.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>Thank you very much. I
appreciate your keenness to conduct this
interview and for providing this space and
platform for me and for all those who represent
the Palestinian cause.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">There
is no doubt that the unprecedented Israeli crime
is a war of genocide, a repetition of what the
Jews were subjected to many decades ago. They are
now committing this Holocaust and this war of
genocide against the Palestinian people and
against a small area of only 365 square
kilometers\u2014using the most severe and horrific
tools of destruction and killing. We are pleased
to address Western public opinion through your
platform so that people hear from us, not about
us, and so that the true nature of this conflict
is understood, about which the world has been
misled for many decades. So thank you.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu mentioned you by name the other day in
regards to the demands for the disarmament of
the Palestinian resistance. Trump\u2019s National
Security adviser, Mike Waltz, said recently that
Hamas can disarm the easy way or the hard way.
Can you explain in detail the position right now
of the Palestinian resistance on the issue of
disarmament, freezing weapons, and a long term
truce, or </span><em>hudna</em><span>? Explain
the position, right now, in the face of these
demands from Netanyahu and Trump\u2019s
administration.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>Of course, Netanyahu
mentioned my name as if in a context of
surprise, or incitement\u2014he is inciting. Does
Netanyahu really expect the Palestinian people
to simply go and give up their weapons?
Netanyahu\u2019s own history, and that of his
predecessors among Israeli leaders, is full of
massacres. There is no trust among the
Palestinian people toward the Israelis and the
occupation. Israel\u2019s history is one of
massacres, treachery, and the violation of all
agreements.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Even
Yasser Arafat, who signed the Oslo Accords with
them, was killed by poison. Mahmoud Abbas, who
dealt with them with great openness in continuing
Oslo and the peace process, is now left in the
headquarters in Ramallah with no real role. In
fact, Netanyahu, [Bezalel] Smotrich, and [Itamar]
Ben-Gvir are now disassembling the Palestinian
Authority and withholding its clearance funds. Not
to mention the massacres Israel has committed
throughout its history in Palestine, Lebanon, and
Egypt, and even in relatively recent Palestinian
history\u2014when the Palestinian resistance left
Beirut, [Ariel] Sharon carried out the Sabra and
Shatila massacres.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
within Palestinian culture, both historically and
in the present, there is no trust in the Israeli.
This is a criminal, treacherous enemy, and
therefore it is only natural for the Palestinian
to hold on to his weapon. This is not an extra
weapon or something marginal for Palestinians\u2014it
is directly tied to our existence under
occupation. Any people living in an independent
state rely on the state and its army\u2014the state is
theirs, the army is theirs, and it protects them.
And in any society, a citizen engages with their
state through political means. But when you are
under occupation, resistance is natural. Who has
not resisted?</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Let
me tell you a story. In 2007, President [Jimmy]
Carter visited me. I respected him because he
conducted himself with high moral standards. He
wrote books supportive of the Palestinian cause. I
valued him, and he gifted me some of his signed
books. I remained in contact with him. I was
saddened when he passed away. This man, with his
deep humanity, asked me about my parents\u2014who were
living in Damascus at the time in 2007. He asked,
\u201cDo you mind if I meet them?\u201d I said no, so he met
with them. My father, spontaneously, said to him:
\u201cMr. Carter, listen\u2014I fought the British Mandate.
I fought the British.\u201d President Carter replied,
with a beautiful spontaneity: \u201cAnd we fought the
British too.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Meaning
that even the Americans fought the colonizer or
forms of colonialism and guardianship over the
United States. I am not speaking [only] about
Vietnam, South Africa, the peoples of the world,
or Cuba\u2014I am speaking even about Western
societies. You know that from the BBC in London,
the British authorities allowed [Charles] de
Gaulle to ignite the spark of popular resistance
by the French people against the Nazis\u2014against
Hitler\u2019s forces. So this is [part of] culture\u2014it
is something natural. Accordingly, what
Palestinians do in resistance is natural, and
their holding on to their weapons is natural. It
is essential that this background be clear to
everyone.</p>
<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;">
<table class="image-wrapper" width="100%"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
data-component-name="Image2ToDOMStatic"
style="mso-padding-alt: 1em 0 1.6em;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
<td class="content" align="left"
width="1422" style="text-align: center;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/c76864b6-86f9-4ea9-bb03-11712724ced4?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="position: relative;flex-direction: column;align-items: center;padding: 0;width: auto;height: auto;border: none;text-decoration: none;display: block;margin: 0;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
class="wide-image"
data-attrs="{"src":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/6774caa2-9ec0-44af-a1a6-e0b75b35af6c_1422x2059.jpeg","srcNoWatermark":null,"fullscreen":null,"imageSize":null,"height":2059,"width":1422,"resizeWidth":null,"bytes":1178981,"alt":null,"title":null,"type":"image/jpeg","href":null,"belowTheFold":true,"topImage":false,"internalRedirect":"https://www.dropsitenews.com/i/181695740?img=https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6774caa2-9ec0-44af-a1a6-e0b75b35af6c_1422x2059.jpeg","isProcessing":false,"align":null,"offset":false}"
alt="" width="550"
height="796.3783403656821"
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!YYGh!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6774caa2-9ec0-44af-a1a6-e0b75b35af6c_1422x2059.jpeg"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;display: block;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;height: auto;margin-bottom: 0;width: auto !important;max-width: 100% !important;margin: 0 auto;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Former
U.S. President Jimmy Carter, right, embraces
Meshaal upon their arrival in Damascus for a
meeting on October 19, 2010. Photo: AFP
PHOTO/LOUAI BESHARA via Getty Images.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">When
Trump\u2019s plan emerged, followed by the Security
Council resolution, and dialogue began between us
and the Egyptian, Qatari, and Turkish mediators,
the central matter became, how do we deal with
what was stated in the plan and in the Security
Council resolution? Our position was clear: Do not
resort to an approach of disarmament. This would
lead to clashing, violence, and confrontation from
the side seeking to impose it on us. We do not
want to clash with anyone or confront anyone, but
we will not accept being forcibly disarmed. We
told them, if you want results, let us look for a
realistic approach that includes guarantees. We
outlined several such guarantees. The first
guarantee is that these weapons\u2014Hamas and the
resistance forces would preserve and not use,
display or parade them. [The weapons] would be set
aside by their own decision and with full
seriousness, especially given that Hamas has a
record of commitment and high credibility.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Second,
what has been referred to as international
stabilization forces: we accept them on the
borders as separation forces between the
Palestinian side and the Israeli side, not as
forces deployed inside Gaza, as was intended for
them and as Netanyahu wants\u2014for them to clash with
Palestinians and disarm them. Third, we proposed a
hudna, and this is evidence of Hamas\u2019s seriousness
and the seriousness of the Palestinian resistance.
A truce of five years, seven years, ten
years\u2014whatever is agreed upon. And a hudna means
commitment. All the periods of calm, as we call
them, during the wars of the past twenty years\u2014all
those limited hudnas\u2014Hamas adhered to them, and it
was Israel that violated them. So, a hudna.</p>
<div class="pullquote"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;border-top: 1px solid #e6e6e6;border-bottom: 1px solid #e6e6e6;margin: 32px auto;text-align: center;">
<p
style="color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;margin: 32px 0;text-align: center;font-weight: 500;font-style: italic;">We
do not want to clash with anyone or confront
anyone, but we will not accept being forcibly
disarmed. We told them, if you want results, let
us look for a realistic approach that includes
guarantees. </p>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Fourth,
we said that the three mediators, along with other
Arab and Islamic countries that have good
relations with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the
resistance forces, can guarantee the Palestinian
side to both the Israeli and the American
sides\u2014that Hamas and the resistance are committed.
In truth, the major question is not the likelihood
of the Palestinian side\u2019s commitment, the problem
lies with the Israeli side\u2014because by its nature
it is treacherous, this is its history. Second, it
is the side that possesses lethal weaponry. The
issue is not how to protect the Israeli side\u2014it is
the occupier. The issue is how to protect the
Palestinian people, who are nearly defenseless.
The weapons of the resistance do not mean that we
are armed in the conventional sense, as states
are. We are a nearly defenseless people, and we
have sought weapons only to the extent possible in
order to protect ourselves and defend ourselves.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">I
believe these are the correct approaches. I
believe\u2014as I stated in my [Al Jazeera]
interview\u2014that the pragmatic American mindset, and
President Trump\u2019s genuine concern to achieve
stability and prevent Gaza from remaining a
continual bleeding wound that worries the world
and deeply strikes the human conscience\u2014Western
capitals, above all others, have become
exasperated and fed up with what Israel is
doing\u2014create an opportunity for stability. Hamas
provides this opportunity with real guarantees and
a record of commitment. This is the approach\u2014any
other [approach] is impractical. It is enough for
me to say it is impractical\u2014not just unacceptable
from our side.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>I watched your recent
interview with Al Jazeera Arabic and you
mentioned the experience of Paul Bremer, who
George W. Bush installed as the \u201cviceroy\u201d in
Iraq during the 2003 invasion. And when the
Americans implemented de-Ba\u2019athification\u2014where
they criminalized the Ba\u2019ath party of Saddam
Hussein\u2014they eliminated huge numbers of not only
the professional military, but also civil
society, government bureaucrats, and
technocrats. They broke civil society because of
de-Ba\u2019athification. It seems to me that the
Americans may eventually realize that Hamas is
not only a resistance movement, but was a
government and built civil infrastructure and
civilian security forces. If they recreate a
de-Ba\u2019athification policy with Hamas and they
try to remove anyone affiliated with Hamas, what
would the consequences be on a security level?
Because the idea is they\u2019re going to send in a
Palestinian police force\u2014trained by the
Egyptians, maybe. But the reality is that Hamas
has been the security internally in Gaza for two
decades. What would the consequences be if the
Americans tried to adopt a de-Ba\u2019athification
approach to Hamas in Gaza?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>From what I\u2019ve been
following in American statements, after the 2003
Iraq invasion, there have been some American
reassessments about what they did in Iraq\u2014that
one of the mistakes was not just dismantling the
regime. They realized that by dismantling the
Iraqi state and its institutions, including the
Iraqi army, they created chaos. This allowed
groups like ISIS and forces the U.S. feared to
emerge and it provided a pretext for prolonging
the war in Iraq and the region. Therefore, I
believe the American administration under
President Trump should not repeat the same
mistake\u2014this is a relatively recent experience.
If America seeks stability in the region, it
must not make things worse or add fuel to the
fire, which would further cause instability.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Furthermore,
Hamas is not just a military organization or armed
group\u2014it is a resistance movement with a military
dimension, but it is also a civil society
movement. It is deeply rooted in the Palestinian
people and is part of the fabric of Palestinian
society. Its members are present across all
aspects of Palestinian life. For two decades,
Hamas has governed society efficiently, learning
from past mistakes and gaining experience, and
there was stability. The people of Gaza know that
before Hamas ruled Gaza, there was lawlessness\u2014a
certain degree of chaos from rogue groups. Hamas
managed this situation with high efficiency.
Therefore, Hamas has a successful track record in
maintaining security in the country and providing
public safety. It has a successful experience in
governing society, the government and providing
for people\u2019s needs, despite an unjust siege that
lasted throughout this period.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Consequently,
any attempt\u2014and here I\u2019m speaking about the
principle, not just the method\u2014to establish a
non-Palestinian authority inside Gaza is first
unacceptable and second doomed to fail. That\u2019s why
I said the Bremer experience is not acceptable.
Looking back at Palestinian history a hundred
years ago, after World War I in the early 1920s,
there was the British Mandate. Practically, this
Mandate was colonial, and Palestinian revolts in
the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s fought against it. The
Mandate was unjust: it seized rights it did not
possess, and it served as cover for the Zionist
gangs that infiltrated Palestine and established
Israel in 1948. Therefore, from a practical
perspective, the Mandate experience and legacy is
extremely negative, and in principle, is
unacceptable. In principle, a mandate and
guardianship are unacceptable.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">As
for the consequences you asked about, if such a
scenario were to occur, they would certainly be
serious. This would not be a confrontation with
Hamas alone; it would be a confrontation with
[Palestinian] society. I have said that any
non-Palestinian authority\u2014meaning foreign
authorities or foreign forces inside Gaza\u2014would be
treated by Palestinians as an occupying authority,
as an occupying power. This would automatically
create a state of conflict because Palestinians
would not accept it. Why would Palestinians reject
Israeli occupation but accept another form of
foreign occupation? That is unacceptable.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">That
is why I said that the Palestinian people are the
ones who govern themselves, who make their own
decisions, and who manage [their affairs]. Then
Hamas took a step meant to shorten the path: it
stepped away from administration\u2014actually
relinquished governance, not just in slogans\u2014and
left it to mediators such as Egypt, Qatar, and
Turkey, in a Palestinian dialogue with various
factions, to agree on forming a technocratic
administration. This is what we have done for more
than a year. What delayed this [process] is that
the [Palestinian] Authority in Ramallah was not
enthusiastic about it, even though we said that
the reference authority of this administration
would be the authority of Ramallah so that the
Palestinian system between Gaza and the West Bank
could be unified. Unfortunately, it stalled. Three
weeks ago, this idea was finalized: 40 respectable
Palestinian figures, all independent technocrats,
were proposed, and eight were selected. The
original plan was for this step to be implemented
quickly and efficiently, but there was a delay
because everyone was waiting to see what Israel
would do in the second phase and whether the
United States would force Israel to enter that
second phase. President Trump\u2019s recent statements
indicate that the process would begin early next
year, but Israel is the one causing the delay.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">For
your information and for the information of
American viewers and followers, the first phase
has not met its requirements. Israel has violated
the requirements or conditions of the first phase:
in relief, shelter, the entry of tents and
caravans, food and medical aid, hospital
rehabilitation, and opening the Rafah crossing in
both directions\u2014as stipulated in the Trump plan
and the Security Council resolution. Yet Israel
only mentions the remaining Israeli bodies\u2014only
one left. Hamas and the Palestinian resistance
committed to everything, while Israel violated
many [obligations]. This is in addition to
killings under various pretexts. Even the issue of
Hamas fighters in Rafah was a solvable problem,
and the U.S. offered an initiative, but it was
thwarted by Netanyahu. We also heard how Trump
criticized Netanyahu, saying, \u201cWhy did you make
this an ongoing crisis?\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Furthermore,
the \u201cyellow line,\u201d which initially allowed Israel
to control about 53% of Gaza\u2014[Israel] is moving
this line\u2014has now shifted closer to 60% of the
Gaza Strip. So some in the world think the first
phase was excellent or fully implemented\u2014it was
not. While the war, in terms of total
annihilation, has stopped, Israeli violations
continue. Therefore, our call as Palestinians, not
just Hamas, is that Israel must be held
accountable for all agreements of the first phase
before moving quickly to the second phase. As
Hamas committed to the first phase requirements,
Hamas, along with all Palestinian forces, is
committed to the requirements of the second phase
through this serious dialogue with the mediators
to reach sound approaches\u2014not as Netanyahu wants,
but as agreed upon with the mediators. And I
believe that the American side, as I said, in its
pursuit of stability and its concern for results
more than the ways Israel is trying to incite the
U.S.\u2014the American administration and the
international community will understand the
approaches that we can develop together with the
mediators.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>How, though, are you
going to navigate the role of Mahmoud Abbas and
the Palestinian Authority? He\u2019s 90 years old.
The last time he was elected was 2005. The
Palestinian Authority was established in 1994
with a five year mandate. The Americans also
punished Abbas\u2014they banned him from attending
the United Nations general assembly in New York.
But also they want to use him for a sort of
legitimacy stamp to say, \u201cAh, see, Palestinians
agree with this.\u201d Recently Abbas pushed a decree
law about elections\u2014the local elections\u2014that
would mean Hamas can\u2019t run in the election. Even
Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a Palestinian political
leader and former candidate for president who
does not control any armed faction, could not
run in the election. But other resistance
leaders have told me that working with the PA
right now in Gaza is the least bad option
because at least it\u2019s Palestinian. But, given
the history, this may not really strike a lot of
Palestinians as a convincing answer. What is
your position on how to navigate the way the
Americans want to use the PA and the broader
struggle by Hamas and other movements to
preserve the Palestinian cause for an
independent state?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>First, democracy is a
right of the Palestinian people. Elections and
building the Palestinian political system on
democratic foundations are a right of the
Palestinian people, not a favor from anyone in
the world\u2014not a gift we wait for from anyone. On
the other hand, the slogans raised by the United
States and Western capitals about democratizing
the region, or their support for a democratic
system\u2014they do practice it in their own
countries, no doubt about that\u2014they must respect
the choice of peoples to exercise this
democratic right. The Palestinian people have a
culture and a history of political engagement.
Just as they excelled in the struggle, they
excel in politics. They have formed parties
since the days of the British Mandate. They have
culture, free press, education, and
universities. The Palestinian people are
vibrant, educated, and well-versed in
civilization. Palestine itself is the land of
civilization and of the Prophets\u2014it has a long
history. It also has a history of peaceful
coexistence among its different components and
religious communities. Therefore, the
Palestinian people do not need anyone to teach
them the culture of democracy. They simply need
others not to interfere with or violate this
right of democracy.</span></p>
<div class="pullquote"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;border-top: 1px solid #e6e6e6;border-bottom: 1px solid #e6e6e6;margin: 32px auto;text-align: center;">
<p
style="color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;margin: 32px 0;text-align: center;font-weight: 500;font-style: italic;">The
democracy desired in Palestine, as is
unfortunately practiced in some countries in the
region and the world, is that elections should
produce predetermined results acceptable to
those holding them. If they do not, they are
canceled. That is not democracy.</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Now,
there was the Palestinian Authority, as you
mentioned, [established] in 1994. In 2006,
elections were held, and Hamas participated for
the first time. Hamas won the elections and formed
a government in 2006 and extended offers to all
Palestinian partners. However, the Authority in
Ramallah pressured these factions not to
participate. Consequently, Hamas was forced to
form the government alone with some independent
figures. This was not their choice but imposed on
them because Ramallah incited the participating
factions. Until clashes occurred and some members
of the Palestinian security apparatus at that time
attempted a coup against the legitimate government
led by Mr. Ismail Haniyeh\u2014Brother Abu Al-Ubid was
the Prime Minister at the time, who later became a
martyr, as you know, more than a year ago. Then
the Mecca Agreement of February 2007 was reached,
leading to a national unity government in which
Fatah and all the factions participated.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">By
June 2007, as a result of an attempt by remnants
of the security apparatus to overthrow this
government, clashes occurred, and stability was
imposed in Gaza under the leadership of Hamas.
Some claimed that Hamas had ousted the others,
which is not true. I visited an Arab leader at the
time, and he asked me, \u201cBrother Abu al-Waleed, how
is it that you fought Fatah and the others in
2007?\u201d I replied, \u201cWe did not fight anyone. We
were not opposing or fighting the authority\u2014we
were the authority. When someone rebels against
the law and the authority, what should we do?
Suppose, Mr. President, someone from a party in
your own country came and fought you\u2014what would
you do? Retaliate? Stop them? Or just watch and
smile?\u201d The president smiled. So, Hamas did not
stage a coup against anyone because it was the
authority. Ismail Haniyeh [of Hamas] was the Prime
Minister of the national unity government, and
[Fatah politician] Azzam al-Ahmad was his deputy.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><span>So,
Hamas is committed to democracy, committed to
the law, and committed to making the democratic
experiment succeed. Since that time, the
situation has changed. What is the main reason
for this? Many Western powers\u2014and unfortunately,
some regional powers in the area\u2014were not
satisfied with the results of the 2006 elections
and did not give Hamas and the Palestinian
society the opportunity to make this experiment
succeed. As a result, a coup was attempted
against it through security and military
conspiracies. Vanity Fair at the time published
a detailed </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/7616c159-e963-4b13-8af6-a8ea157618e0?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">report</a><span> about
this\u2014it is a Western magazine, as you know. Gaza
was also subjected to an economic blockade. The
democratic experiment was therefore fought
against economically and targeted security-wise
through attempts to overthrow it. The security
coup did not succeed, but there is no doubt that
the blockade harmed the experiment and made life
in Gaza abnormal. So, this democratic experiment
was perhaps targeted for failure from the very
beginning, but the will of our people enabled
Hamas to continue.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">After
that, we were called to hold elections several
times, but what made this fail was President
Mahmoud Abbas. We agreed several times\u2014for
example, in 2011, we agreed to rebuild the
Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) on new
democratic foundations. That is, there are
elections for the Palestinian Authority\u2014which, as
you know, operates in Gaza and the West Bank. The
PLO is the political national reference for the
Palestinian people, inside and outside [the
country]. We agreed to rebuild the organization
and took a transitional step by forming a
temporary leadership framework, which met for only
two sessions in Cairo that I attended, and then
they did nothing. President Mahmoud Abbas, on his
own initiative, called for municipal elections
several times and then canceled them. We agreed
in, I think, 2020 or 2021, on elections\u2014they were
canceled again. I asked one of the leaders in
Ramallah, \u201cWhy were the elections canceled?\u201d Of
course, this was unofficial, and he said, \u201cIn
short, because we are not confident in the
results.\u201d</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
the democracy desired in Palestine, as is
unfortunately practiced in some countries in the
region and the world, is that elections should
produce predetermined results acceptable to those
holding them. If they do not, they are canceled.
That is not democracy. If you respect the will of
the people, allow them to express it freely at the
ballot box. Today, everyone knows\u2014even after the
destruction in Gaza following two long years of
the crime of genocide committed by Israel\u2014that the
Palestinian conscience, awareness, and, I believe,
the Palestinian voter, if given the opportunity,
would vote for the resistance They know that the
resistance reflects their conscience and is a
natural response to the occupation, and that the
real problem lies with the Israeli occupation.
Therefore, the Palestinian Authority has become
weak because, on one hand, it no longer renews its
legitimacy before its people. Secondly, it has
been reduced to weak roles, especially security
coordination with Israel. It has essentially
become just a stamp or signature required to
approve steps taken by the Israelis or the
Americans. And you know\u2014you, being part of
American and Western society\u2014that the West does
not respect the weak, even if they are its
followers. The world respects the strong. Hamas is
strong, credible, and open to dealing with the
entire world.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">So
today, notice in the Trump plan and the Security
Council resolution\u2014they, of course, want to end
Hamas while at the same time rejecting any role
for the Palestinian Authority (PA). Europeans
advocate for a role for the PA, but the U.S.
administration does not accept it, and Israel does
not accept it. That is why we have called for
Palestinian national unity, so that we are strong
together and can impose our will on everyone.
Hamas believes in organizing the Palestinian
system around two principles: elections and a
return to the ballot box, and second, partnership,
meaning we do not exclude anyone. I have said
this: in normal circumstances, as in the West, the
party that wins the majority governs, and the rest
are in the opposition or form a shadow government.
But in our country, we need the energy of
everyone. We hold elections, and after the
elections we form a formula of national
partnership across all institutions of the
Palestinian political system to benefit from
everyone\u2019s efforts.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">This
is what Hamas proposes: it does not assert itself
solely based on its popularity or majority, nor
because it is the primary force on the ground. It
seeks to include everyone. Hamas wants democracy
because Hamas is also part of Palestinian society.
It has political experience and a practical, civil
presence within its community in all its aspects.</p>
<div class="captioned-image-container-static"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;margin: 32px auto;">
<figure style="width: 100%;margin: 0 auto;">
<table class="image-wrapper" width="100%"
border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
data-component-name="Image2ToDOMStatic"
style="mso-padding-alt: 1em 0 1.6em;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
<td class="content" align="left"
width="1200" style="text-align: center;"><a
class="image-link" target="_blank"
href="https://substack.com/redirect/6d7b733a-00e3-4fbc-bb61-bacd43af16bf?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="position: relative;flex-direction: column;align-items: center;padding: 0;width: auto;height: auto;border: none;text-decoration: none;display: block;margin: 0;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
class="wide-image"
data-attrs="{"src":"https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/f66dac93-d084-49c5-9346-350fb37f8750_2244x1416.jpeg","srcNoWatermark":null,"fullscreen":false,"imageSize":"large","height":919,"width":1456,"resizeWidth":1200,"bytes":760043,"alt":null,"title":null,"type":"image/jpeg","href":null,"belowTheFold":true,"topImage":false,"internalRedirect":"https://www.dropsitenews.com/i/181695740?img=https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff66dac93-d084-49c5-9346-350fb37f8750_2244x1416.jpeg","isProcessing":false,"align":"center","offset":false}"
alt="" width="550"
height="347.14972527472526"
src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ZrF9!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Ff66dac93-d084-49c5-9346-350fb37f8750_2244x1416.jpeg"
style="border: none !important;vertical-align: middle;display: block;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;height: auto;margin-bottom: 0;width: auto !important;max-width: 100% !important;margin: 0 auto;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Khaled
Meshaal, right, with Ismail Haniyeh at a rally
to mark the 25th anniversary of the founding
of Hamas in Gaza on December 8, 2012. Photo:
MAHMUD HAMS/AFP via Getty Images.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>In the most recent </span><a
href="https://substack.com/redirect/9c00cde2-9c41-4a1e-b85c-a4fc39a86a38?j=eyJ1IjoibHZwcGIifQ.9RIwWbE6EVIB7Jy8lfazxZKfps8R18neRGMKwOiqnRM"
rel=""
style="color: #00058c;text-decoration: none;"
moz-do-not-send="true">polls</a><span> I\u2019ve
read, Hamas is the number one most popular
political party in Palestine. You are the most
popular candidate for president with the
exception of imprisoned leader Marwan Barghouti.
But in terms of men who are not in prison right
now, you\u2019re the leading candidate. It seems like
Europe and America do not want Hamas to be able
to participate in elections. Given the
popularity of Hamas and your popularity as a
political leader according to some Palestinian
polls, would you consider running for either
president or to be head of the government as
prime minister? And how would you do that if
they make a law saying you can\u2019t?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>First of all, our dear
brother Marwan Barghouti\u2014who is in prison, and
whom we hope will be released\u2014we have fought for
his release, as well as for [the release of]
Brother Ahmad Saadat, the Secretary General of
the Popular Front for the Liberation of
Palestine. However, it is Israel that remains
intransigent. And I am not revealing a secret
when I say that some Palestinian parties were
not enthusiastic about Marwan Barghouti\u2019s
release from prison\u2014his wife knows this. Hamas,
for its part, was keen, but due to Israeli
intransigence and the lack of sufficient
American pressure on Israel during the recent
negotiations, we were unable to secure the
release of Ahmad Saadat, Marwan Barghouti, Abbas
al\u2011Sayyed of Hamas, Ibrahim Hamed, Abdullah
Barghouti, Hassan Salameh, Arman, and many other
Palestinian leaders. This is, of course, deeply
regrettable for us. But this reflects our
commitment to all the prisoners of our
people\u2014whether from Hamas, Fatah, or the Popular
Front.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">We
hope that Marwan will be released, that he will
have the opportunity to engage in national
struggle and political work, and that he will be a
candidate\u2014this is his natural right. Hamas also
has the right to nominate whomever it chooses,
whether Khaled Meshaal or someone else. That is a
decision for the movement to make at the
appropriate time. Just as Hamas courageously
participated in the 2006 elections, it is capable
of doing so again. However, the doors are
closed\u2014not only by Israel and the U.S.
administration, signaling that they would reject
any election results\u2014but, unfortunately, also by
the Authority in Ramallah, which does not allow
elections unless it can guarantee [the outcome].
They want elections that are carefully calibrated
and whose results they feel assured about.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">We
understand and firmly believe that there is no
solution\u2014just as there is no solution to dealing
with the occupation except for it to leave our
land, whether through resistance or otherwise.
Incidentally, in my meetings with regional leaders
and Western leaders, I have told them clearly: our
demand as Palestinians is the withdrawal of the
occupation from Palestine.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Have you personally had
any discussions\u2014you, yourself\u2014with EU leaders
recently, with European leaders directly?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>No, we did meet with
officials from the European Union, but not at
the level of heads of state within the EU\u2014we met
with ministers. For a period, we were open\u2014there
was openness toward us from Norway and
Switzerland. We met with ministers from those
countries. We met with officials from countries,
some of these meetings were public, and others
were private. Many of the meetings we held were
private. We welcome any such meetings.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">The
main point is this: I told one of these leaders
that the Palestinian people\u2019s demand is very
simple\u2014the end of the occupation. It is our
natural right. Our people do not accept living
under occupation. How do we get rid of the
occupation? There are two options: either we
resist it, which is our natural right under
international law, or others help us to get rid of
it\u2014just as the Americans have helped in the past
to remove occupiers from certain countries. We
said that we prefer the easier option. But as long
as the international community does not act fairly
toward us\u2014while the Americans and Europeans have
intervened in some cases, such as Kosovo, Bosnia,
elsewhere, and Iraq, and at a certain point lifted
their support from the apartheid regime in South
Africa\u2014to this day the international community and
its major powers have not intervened to do us
justice or to compel Israel to withdraw, at the
very least in accordance with international
legitimacy resolutions, which the West respects,
from the West Bank and Gaza. They have not done
so.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
when the world fails to help you, you have no
choice but to resist the occupier until you force
it to withdraw. History\u2014Palestinian history and
the history of the region\u2014shows that there has
never been a case in which an occupier withdrew
from land without pressure. This was [true] during
the era of British, French, and Italian
colonialism in the region, and it has been [true]
in our experience with the Israeli occupation
since 1948. That is our demand in the context of
resistance. In the political realm as well, the
solution we believe in is democracy\u2014but on the
condition that it is genuine democracy, not one
imposed on us in the manner preferred by Israel or
the United States, where the results are
predetermined. As the Palestinian people, we are
capable of managing our own political system,
holding free and fair elections, and governing
ourselves. The outcome of such elections would be
a strong, respected Palestinian leadership that
represents the Palestinian people in managing both
the struggle on the ground and the political
battle.</p>
<div class="pullquote"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;border-top: 1px solid #e6e6e6;border-bottom: 1px solid #e6e6e6;margin: 32px auto;text-align: center;">
<p
style="color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;margin: 32px 0;text-align: center;font-weight: 500;font-style: italic;">How
do we get rid of the occupation? There are two
options: either we resist it, which is our
natural right under international law, or others
help us to get rid of it\u2014just as the Americans
have helped in the past to remove occupiers from
certain countries. We said that we prefer the
easier option.</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Part of why I\u2019m asking
is because some European leaders and political
officers have suggested Hamas could reform
itself and take a more moderate position. And it
seems like they understand that Hamas represents
a large percentage of the Palestinian people.
But there\u2019s going to be a lot of pressure on you
and other leaders to make concessions to Western
countries. And given your career spent in this
movement, I\u2019m curious how you navigate this.
Because Hamas has been called terrorists and
this is in the mind of so many leaders in the
U.S. and in Europe. But Hamas is also a popular
movement. It\u2019s also a resistance movement. So,
how do you navigate this? I\u2019m sure European
leaders\u2014the European leaders know you well. And
so I\u2019m wondering what your position is, how you
deal with this pressure while staying loyal to
the overarching principles of Hamas?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>There is no doubt that
how you present yourself under an initial or
preemptive accusation\u2014that you are a terrorist
organization and that you are judged by Israel\u2019s
standards for classifying groups\u2014[is difficult].
If, however, the U.S. administration and Western
capitals applied the same Western standards to
Hamas and the Palestinian resistance factions,
they would classify them as national liberation
movements\u2014just as, for example, the Americans
did 200 years ago, the French during World War
II, and as all the peoples of the world have
done. I am certain of this. Just like how they
treated Mandela: once considered a terrorist and
then he became a great man to them, and indeed
he was a great man. If Western standards on
democracy, human rights, and opposition to
occupation under international law were applied,
the West in its various capitals would see Hamas
and the Palestinian resistance forces as
national liberation movements. Yasser Arafat was
considered a terrorist by them and later became
a man of peace.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Unfortunately,
one of the problems with the U.S. administration
is that it prioritizes Israel\u2019s interests more
than the United States\u2019 own interests. Even
Trump\u2019s people\u2014MAGA\u2014came to realize that Israel is
a burden on them, restricting and harming U.S.
interests. I am simply calling on the American
people and the U.S. administration to judge based
on America\u2019s interests, not Israel\u2019s. If they look
at us even for a moment in a fair and impartial
way, they will see that the Palestinian people are
oppressed under occupation, and they have the
right to resist\u2014unless America steps in and forces
Israel to withdraw, in which case we would thank
America. But if they do not do so, then they
should leave us to resist.</p>
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style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Egyptian
President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, U.S. President
Donald Trump, and Emir of Qatar Sheikh Tamim
ben Hamad al-Thani at the Gaza summit in Sharm
El-Sheikh on October 13, 2025. Photo: EVAN
VUCCI/POOL/AFP via Getty Images.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Now,
what is the other standard for Hamas? The
philosophy of resistance is to liberate [one\u2019s
land], which is consistent with international law
and the historical Western approach to occupiers.
Regarding structure\u2014the organizational framework
of any movement\u2014what more could they ask of Hamas
in terms of its democratic structure? Hamas elects
its president and leadership every four years.
Hamas is democratic to its core, perhaps more so
than some Western parties and forces. Money is not
used in our [elections] as it is in Western
elections. Hamas is inherently democratic and
accepts democracy with others, as shown in the
2006 elections, municipal elections, and
university and union elections. Hamas practices
[democracy] and abides by the results. Hamas is
also a movement rooted in society and provides
services to the Palestinian community. It has a
civil body\u2014it is a resistance movement, not a
[purely] military organization. It is not a
military group. It is a social movement that
engages with all segments of society and has
established many institutions, including
universities and hospitals and other facilities
that serve the Palestinian community.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">So,
Hamas is a movement that cannot be described as
terrorist, because it is part of the fabric of
Palestinian society. Accordingly, it should be
dealt with on that basis. You can interview anyone
who has met with Hamas\u2019s leadership among Western
figures. As I mentioned to you, for example,
President Carter met with us. Some former U.S.
ambassadors met with us through the Human Dialogue
initiative in Switzerland. Others have met with us
as well. All of them came away with impressions
very different from the stereotypical image they
had before meeting Hamas\u2019s leadership. They
discovered that Hamas\u2019s leaders are open,
democratic, and willing to engage [in dialogue].
Yes, they defend their national project and their
right to independence and to ending the
occupation, but they are also politically open to
everyone. Therefore, this unfair, stereotypical
labeling is exhausting and burdensome for us
because it erects barriers between us and others.</p>
<div class="pullquote"
style="font-size: 16px;line-height: 26px;border-top: 1px solid #e6e6e6;border-bottom: 1px solid #e6e6e6;margin: 32px auto;text-align: center;">
<p
style="color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;margin: 32px 0;text-align: center;font-weight: 500;font-style: italic;">It
is in the interest of the United States and
Western capitals to pursue positive engagement
with Hamas and with the Palestinian people,
because we are the future, and this occupation
will become part of the past.</p>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Let
me give you an example: Ahmad Al\u2011Sharaa, who was
formerly known as Al\u2011Jolani, was once accused by
the Americans of being affiliated with Al\u2011Qaeda or
Al\u2011Nusra, and suddenly he became acceptable. We
are pleased that he is accepted, because in the
end he is a son of Syria. He has an experience
that I cannot judge, but later he fought for
Syria\u2019s freedom and led his people, together with
the broader Syrian forces, to rid themselves of
tyranny. That is a Syrian matter and their right.
Why does the U.S. administration give Ahmad
Al\u2011Sharaa this opportunity but does not give it to
Hamas and the Palestinian resistance forces? It
does not even give it today to [Palestinian
Authority President] Mahmoud Abbas, who is not
accused of terrorism. There is a clear double
standard. I believe\u2014and I have said this
repeatedly, and I say it to you now through your
platform\u2014that the Palestinian people will prevail
and will rid themselves of the occupation, and
Israel\u2019s fate will not be different from that of
the apartheid regime in South Africa. It is in the
interest of the United States and Western capitals
to pursue positive engagement with Hamas and with
the Palestinian people, because we are the future,
and this occupation will become part of the past.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Regarding Ahmed Al
Sharaa, I must say, when he took power, the
Israelis bombed nearly all of the conventional
military capacity of Syria. They are pressuring
him to sign a normalization agreement with
Israel. The Israelis have been able to occupy
more and more Syrian territory. Yes, it\u2019s an
interesting example because of his history with
Al Qaeda and Nusra. However, the demand in front
of the Palestinians now from Europe is a
disarmed Palestinian state, demilitarized\u2014no
army, no weapons. This is what they are
saying\u2014two state solution. On the other side is
Israel. It\u2019s not just Netanyahu\u2014a large
percentage of Israelis clearly want all of you
gone or dead, as indicated by public polls. So
you\u2019re facing a situation where the support for
Palestinians is unprecedented, huge support in
the world. But the official demand from the
chambers of Western power is no guns, no army,
no self defense\u2014essentially, you must always be
under the fist of Israel. That\u2019s also the
emerging reality in Syria. That\u2019s what they\u2019re
doing to the Syrians. So it\u2019s a difficult
situation you\u2019re in.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>That is true. And why?
What is the reason behind all these abnormal
situations? It is Israel. When the United States
or Western capitals deal with other countries,
they may not be right or fair, but they behave
in a relatively reasonable manner\u2014except in any
case where Israel is involved. At that point,
the West and the United States lose sight of
themselves and align with Israel\u2019s
demands\u2014demands of an occupier seeking dominance
over the region. That is our problem today.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">In
Palestine, they first talk about a state. And I
believe that, so far, the issue of a state remains
a slogan\u2014there is no real seriousness. Yes, a
conference was held under the sponsorship of Saudi
Arabia and France, and 159 countries recognized
the Palestinian state, but this still remains at
the level of symbolism. There has been no
international will formed to force Israel to
withdraw so that a state can actually
exist\u2014because there is no state without
withdrawal. The Palestinian Authority declared the
state many years ago, but it is a state in the
air. We are not seeking psychological satisfaction
from symbolic statehood, we are seeking freedom,
independence, to live without occupation, and to
build our state. Today, this opportunity is not
available to the Palestinians. If the world does
not want to help us achieve this, then it should
allow us to resist and should not label our
resistance as terrorism.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Furthermore,
what does it even mean\u2014a state without weapons? Of
course, if a state is granted as a gift from
others\u2014if that were even to happen\u2014it would come
with conditions, just as conditions were imposed
on the [Palestinian] Authority. The problem is
that any achievement based on agreements under
others\u2019 conditions, will restrict you. That is why
the Palestinian Authority has been constrained
security-wise, politically, and economically. We
are seeking a Palestinian authority\u2014or more
precisely, a Palestinian state\u2014after the end of
the occupation. We were not satisfied with having
an authority under occupation through Oslo. It
proved to be a failed authority because it was
constrained, and at any moment [Israel] could
intervene. Today there is a complete violation of
the Authority: the Israeli army can enter Ramallah
and Area A at any time, and it now seeks to
restore administration even over Area B, contrary
to Oslo, and may even reassert control over Area A
as well. [Israel] intervenes whenever it wishes.
Any Palestinian minister within the Authority is
stopped at checkpoints\u2014even Mahmoud Abbas cannot
move without their permission. What kind of
authority is this? It is an authority without
sovereignty, without even the most basic level of
respect or independent decision-making.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
for us, the proper course is that a state should
be established only after the occupation ends. The
first step toward statehood is not available here.
That is why the Palestinian people do not wait for
others. They know that the West\u2014led by the United
States\u2014acts with absolute bias whenever Israel is
part of the picture. Therefore, we decide to rid
ourselves of the occupation and to create our
independence just as other peoples have done.
Second, why am I being asked to be disarmed?
Guaranteed by whom? Who gives anyone the right to
demand a state without [weapons]? A state itself
decides\u2014just as some countries choose to be
non-aligned or without military capabilities. That
is their decision, it is not imposed on them. We
are like any other country in the world: we end
the occupation, establish our state, build it
democratically, and it will have its own army like
any other state in the world. In short, there is a
huge difference between waiting for others to
deliver your national rights and demands\u2014which I
consider futile and detached from reality\u2014and
taking it upon yourself to achieve your identity,
your rights, and your national aspirations. When
you do that, those who reject you today will
accept you tomorrow. We know the Western world
well: it tries to block you, but once you prove
your merit, it will deal with you. This is what we
are striving for.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">We
say to the American people\u2014over the past two
years\u2014we have deeply appreciated the engagement we
have seen in American society: in universities,
[including] the most prestigious ones, across
different U.S. cities, among American elites, and
among the new generation of Americans, including
Jewish Americans who have shown solidarity with
Palestine. Fifty-one percent of young Americans
aged 18 to 24 support the Palestinian
cause\u2014indeed, support Hamas and the resistance.
[Note: The poll, conducted by Harvard/Harris in
December 2023, asked if the October 7 attacks \u201ccan
be justified by the grievances of Palestinians?\u201d]
This is a significant shift, and we hope that the
American human conscience will awaken and realize
that Israel is a burden on [the United States],
and that the Palestinian people are not against
American interests. We are opposed to those who
interfere in our affairs and to those who support
our enemy. But we are ready to open up to America,
to Europe, and to the world to build cultural and
civilizational exchange, just as this region has
historically been a cradle of civilizations, and
to manage mutual interests. What we will not
accept is occupation, guardianship, or support for
an occupier. We criticize the United States not
because it is the United States\u2014no\u2014but because it
provides Israel, our occupier, with complete
support in all forms. Today, there is an
opportunity for transformation, and I believe it
is in the interest of the West to sponsor a
fundamental change in [the approach to] Palestine,
just as it eventually recognized the truth in
South Africa and withdrew its support from that
apartheid regime.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Trump of course is a
businessman. And he\u2019s not just representing
America as the president, he\u2019s also preparing
the path for business deals for his family. Many
Arab countries are making big deals with Trump
and they are trying to become very close friends
of Trump. And in this deal on Gaza\u2014the 20 point
plan\u2014Arab countries and Islamic countries put
their stamp on it. And I heard you on Al Jazeera
give credit to some of these countries\u2014they
stopped the big genocide by agreeing to it, but
still Palestinians are killed every day. How do
you not feel that this is one of the biggest
betrayals of the Palestinian people by Arab and
Islamic countries by working with Trump in this
way?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>Look, as Palestinians,
we deal with our Arab and Islamic nation on two
levels: one based on brotherhood\u2014on the fact
that we are one nation with a shared destiny and
mutual rights\u2014and another based on the realities
of politics. As a leader, I have to balance
both. Measured by the standard of brotherhood
and shared destiny\u2014that we are one nation and
that the Palestinian cause has always been, and
remains, the central cause of the [Arab and
Islamic] nation\u2014there is no doubt that the
responsibility of the nation is great.
Governments, leaders, and rulers within the
nation should not have allowed this criminal
war, this war of total genocide, to continue for
two full years. That is why we called on many
leaders of the nation, from the very first weeks
and months, to move decisively and tell the
Americans and the West: enough\u2014this war must
stop. There was undoubtedly some shortcoming,
and the efforts fell short of what we had hoped
for.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">At
the same time, we are aware of Arab and Islamic
weakness. We know that the Arab position is not
unified\u2014there are disagreements, unfortunately,
that have grown over a long period. There is no
agreed-upon Arab or Islamic leadership that can
command, reject, and coordinate collective
action\u2014there is fragmentation and disarray.
Moreover, many states are preoccupied with their
own priorities and interests with the United
States and Europe. So while they try to play a
role in supporting the Palestinian people,
standing by its cause or stopping the war, they
also [consider] economic interests, arms purchases
and other strategic considerations. And since the
American president is, in fact, a businessman,
some countries are trying to build relationships
with him that either serve their interests or
protect them from potential harm, because they
fear Trump\u2019s adventures and sudden moves, as we
saw in the past.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">This
situation undoubtedly weakens strong Arab and
Islamic intervention to stop the war, and it is
something we have criticized. But this does not
negate the positive steps I mentioned in the
interview\u2014and I was sincere about them. For
example, Egypt\u2019s rejection of the displacement of
our people from Gaza is a genuine Egyptian
position because it also aligns with Egypt\u2019s
interest and its national security. Similarly,
Jordan has feared\u2014and continues to fear\u2014the
policies of Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Smotrich
aimed at annexing the West Bank, displacing its
population, expanding settlements, destruction,
seizing large areas of land, and violating Al-Aqsa
Mosque, over which Jordan has a religious
custodianship. These [policies] alarm Jordan
deeply. Therefore, Jordan\u2019s rejection of
displacement from the West Bank is also a genuine
position\u2014it is not only about Jordanian security,
but about the very existence of the Jordanian
state. There are concerns for the future. We
appreciate the positions taken by Egypt and
Jordan. We also appreciate the significant
positions taken by Qatar, despite the fact that it
is not a neighboring country and is distant\u2014it
took strong and commendable positions. The same is
true of Turkey. And many Arab countries as well,
including Saudi Arabia, which was asked to
normalize relations with Israel, establish ties
and join the Abraham Accords. [Saudi Arabia] set
four conditions: three related to Saudi Arabia,
and one tied to ending the occupation and
establishing a Palestinian state.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">There
are Arab and Islamic positions that I do not want
to constrain [to a list]\u2014across our region there
have been commendable stances. However, they have
not been sufficient given the responsibility of
the [Arab and Islamic] nation toward Palestine and
in light of the scale of the crime committed over
two full years in the Gaza Strip. Our policy in
Hamas is to thank the efforts that have been made,
while [at the same time] calling for more. Even
countries that supported us, such as Iran, and
Hezbollah, which entered the confrontation in
support of Gaza, are appreciated by us. There have
been political efforts, military efforts,
humanitarian relief and support inside Palestine,
and popular mobilization in the Arab and Islamic
streets, just as there has been in Western
societies\u2014all of this is valued. But did the
international community succeed? Did the Arab and
Islamic nation and its leadership succeed in
stopping the crime at an early stage? The answer
is no, they did not. The massacre and the war of
genocide continued for two full years. That was
undoubtedly extremely painful for us\u2014yet, praise
be to God.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">When
eight Arab and Islamic leaders went recently to
New York last September and exerted pressure on
the administration\u2014they met with President Trump.
This led to what became known as the Trump plan
which was not sufficiently fair and contained
serious gaps, but we considered it an important
step toward stopping the war. That is why we dealt
with it positively, intelligently, and with
flexibility, which helped bring the war to a halt.
Even this plan, however, is being violated by
Israel. From time to time, we hear statements from
President Trump and some members of his
administration criticizing Israel, but the
criticism is mild. Meanwhile, Hamas\u2014which has
adhered to the agreement\u2014continues to face
accusations and harsh rhetoric from time to time.
This is something that must be overcome.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">In
short, on this point: yes, more is required from
Arabs and Muslims, but they are not the strongest
party. As you know, no one in the world is able to
compel Israel\u2014even Europeans do not do so, or
cannot do so. Therefore, the responsibility of the
United States is a doubled responsibility, and
power is responsibility. President Trump and the
American administration alone are capable of
compelling Israel and Netanyahu to respect the
agreements, so they bear this responsibility
before we assign responsibility to any regional or
international party.</p>
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width="1200" style="text-align: center;"><a
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src="https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!d4zZ!,w_1100,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fbd5febac-391c-439a-b316-d7b0511b512d_4662x3000.jpeg"
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<figcaption class="image-caption"
style="box-sizing: content-box;color: #777777;font-size: 14px;line-height: 20px;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: -.15px;margin-top: 8px;width: 70%;padding-left: 15%;padding-right: 15%;text-align: center;">Yahya
Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh watch a video feed
in Gaza of the speech by Khaled Meshaal
announcing the revised political platform of
Hamas on May 1, 2017. Photo: MAHMUD HAMS/AFP
via Getty Images.</figcaption></figure>
</div>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Jeremy
Scahill: </strong><span>Hamas, in essence,
updated its charter in 2017 and the official
position on what the international community,
particularly the U.S. and EU, calls the \u201ctwo
state solution\u201d is that Hamas, if it\u2019s the
democratic will of the Palestinian people to
establish a state along the pre-1967 war
borders, would not object to it and would accept
the democratic will of the Palestinian people.
But you have an expansion of settlers in the
West Bank. You have a genocidal mentality in
Israeli society. Is there really a point anymore
to Palestinians discussing a two state solution?
Is there any relevance to this anymore in your
view?</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;"><strong>Khaled
Meshaal: </strong><span>Look, what we announced
in 2017 in the political charter was not, at
that moment, a new position regarding Hamas\u2019s
behavior or political stances\u2014Hamas had already
developed and maintained these political
positions since it participated in elections,
even before that. For more than twenty-five
years, Hamas has built a political philosophy
and a system of political positions and ideas,
developing them through its internal democratic
structure, through dialogues with other
Palestinian factions, and also with Arab and
Islamic countries through discussions. This was
to form a political program that aligns with its
principles and constants, but also opens
horizons to achieve gains on one hand, and
importantly, provides a common ground for
Palestinian-Palestinian unity and engagement
with the official Arab position.</span></p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">We
wanted\u2014especially after winning the elections\u2014to
create a joint political program where we could
meet with Fatah and other factions, and also have
a program with shared points with the official
Arab stance, as a way to facilitate matters. But
we understood that Israel would not allow this.
What is called the \u201ctwo-state solution\u201d will not
be permitted [by Israel]. I believe that the idea
of a two-state solution is a beautiful slogan
presented internationally and regionally, but
Israel will not allow it because the West Bank is,
for Israel, the heart of the Zionist project.
Israel has historically referred to it as Judea
and Samaria.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">What
happened in Gaza in 2005, with the Israeli
withdrawal, was an exception forced upon Sharon at
the time because Gaza had become a burden for
them. Gaza is a limited area, and Israeli policy
is fine with relinquishing small areas, especially
if they have a dense population and pose a
security headache, like Gaza. The 2000 Intifada,
though primarily in the West Bank in terms of
population and area, was addressed by Israel
through withdrawal from Gaza, not the West Bank.
On the contrary, they launched [Operation]
Defensive Shield. Because the West Bank, in
Israel\u2019s plan, is the heart of the Zionist
project. That\u2019s why I said: when Israel withdraws
from the West Bank and Jerusalem, it would mean a
shift in the balance of power, and Israel would
withdraw from all of Palestine\u2014it would leave all
of Palestine.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">So
why did Hamas accept a Palestinian state on the
1967 borders, without calling it a two-state
solution? Because the two-state solution implies
automatically recognizing Israel. In discussions
with Westerners, we told them: no, we accept a
state on the 1967 borders as a shared national
project with the other Palestinian factions. As
for recognizing Israel, Hamas has a [clear]
position on this\u2014we do not recognize Israel.
However, we will respect the Palestinian will when
it is consulted on this matter and other related
issues. As for us in Hamas, we do not recognize
the legitimacy of the occupation. So, why did we
go with the idea of a Palestinian state along the
1967 borders? To reach a common position with our
Palestinian partners and also with the Arab and
Islamic countries. Hamas\u2019s approach has been
proven correct\u2014not only what Hamas presented in
2017, but even back in 2006 in the National Accord
Document that came from the prisoners\u2019 initiative.
All of this was on the table\u2014a state along the
1967 borders. However, even the official Arab
system, which presented King Abdullah\u2019s
initiative\u2014may God have mercy on him\u2014through the
Beirut Summit in 2002, has not been able, over
these past 23 years, to achieve a single step
toward establishing a Palestinian state, because
Israel refuses it. Israel will not give anything
freely.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">For
Hamas, therefore, we are both principled and
realistic. Principled: we reject the occupation,
we reject guardianship, we reject relinquishing
our rights to the land and to Jerusalem, the right
of return for refugees, and the independence of
our national decision-making. These are the
principles and rights of our people, including the
release of our prisoners. At the same time, we are
politically realistic and deal with partners,
including the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah
and Fatah. We are realistic in dealing with the
Arab and Islamic reality and the international
community, and we are ready to engage with any
serious project to establish a Palestinian state
along the 1967 borders. Even though I realize,
unfortunately, that this is impossible because of
Israeli policy, not just because of today\u2019s
realities with settlers, or the policies of Ben
Gvir and Smotrich\u2014this [only] reflects the essence
of the strategy. The Likud has a clear strategy:
no Palestinian state between the river and the
sea, and if Palestinians want a state, they should
go to Jordan. That is their strategy. The
difference between Netanyahu and Smotrich or Ben
Gvir is only in how they present the position. But
Netanyahu does not differ from them in essence\u2014he
does not recognize Palestinian rights.</p>
<p
style="margin: 0 0 20px 0;color: rgb(54,55,55);line-height: 26px;font-size: 16px;">Therefore,
the current reality in Gaza, the settlements, the
violations, the attempts at displacement, and the
war crime of genocide in Gaza show that Israel
does not respect Palestinian rights and does not
accept a Palestinian state. Nevertheless, we
Palestinians\u2014in Hamas, along with our partners on
the Palestinian scene and our Arab and Islamic
countries\u2014are ready, if there is serious regional
and international commitment, for Israel to be
compelled to withdraw to the borders of June 4,
1967, including Jerusalem, so that we can
establish our Palestinian state. If the conditions
are met, Hamas will accept this and act
responsibly. We will build a real democratic
Palestinian state\u2014not like Israel today, which
claims democracy while violating it even against
its own citizens.</p>
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