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<h1 class="gmail-reader-title">“A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza</h1>
<div class="gmail-credits gmail-reader-credits">Democracy Now! - October 16, 2023<br></div>
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<div class="gmail-moz-reader-content gmail-reader-show-element"><div id="gmail-readability-page-1" class="gmail-page"><p>This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.</p><div><p><strong><span>AMY</span> <span>GOODMAN</span>:</strong> This is <em>Democracy Now!</em>, <a href="http://democracynow.org">democracynow.org</a>, <em>The War and Peace Report</em>. I’m Amy Goodman.</p>
<p>“A Textbook Case of Genocide: Israel has been explicit about what
it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?” That’s the
headline of a new <a href="https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide">piece</a> in <em>Jewish Currents</em>
by our next guest, Raz Segal. He’s an Israeli historian, associate
professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University,
where he’s also an endowed professor in the study of modern genocide.
Raz Segal joins us now from Philadelphia.</p>
<p>Professor Segal, welcome to <em>Democracy Now!</em> Lay out your case.</p>
<p><strong><span>RAZ</span> <span>SEGAL</span>:</strong> Thank you for having me.</p>
<p>I think that, indeed, what we’re seeing now in Gaza is a case of
genocide. We have to understand that the U.N. Convention on the
Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide from 1948 requires
that we see special intent for genocide to happen. And to quote the
convention, intent to destroy a group is defined as racial, ethnic,
religious or national as such that is collectively, not just
individuals. And this intent, as we just heard, is on full display by
Israeli politicians and army officers since 7th of October. We heard
Israel’s president. It’s well-known what the Defense Minister Yoav
Gallant said on 9th of October declaring a complete siege on Gaza,
cutting off water, food, fuel, stating that “We’re fighting human
animals,” and we will react “accordingly.” He also said that “We will
eliminate everything.” We know that Israeli army spokesperson Daniel
Hagari, for example, acknowledged wanton destruction and said
explicitly, “The emphasis on damage and not on accuracy.” So we’re
seeing the special intent on full display. And really, I have to say, if
this is not special intent to commit genocide, I really don’t know what
is.</p>
<p>So, when we look at the actions taken, the dropping of thousands and
thousands of bombs in a couple of days, including phosphorus bombs, as
we heard, on one of the most densely populated areas around the world,
together with these proclamations of intent, this indeed constitutes
genocidal killing, which is the first act, according to the convention,
of genocide. And Israel, I must say, is also perpetrating act number two
and three — that is, causing serious bodily or mental harm, and
creating condition designed to bring about the destruction of the group
by cutting off water, food, supply of energy, bombing hospitals,
ordering the fast evictions of hospitals, which the World Health
Organization has declared to be, quote, “a death sentence.” So, we’re
seeing the combination of genocidal acts with special intent. This is
indeed a textbook case of genocide.</p>
<p><strong><span>AMY</span> <span>GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Can you talk
about the displacement? Israel is saying that the entire northern Gaza
— now hundreds of thousands of people have complied — must move south.
The northern part of Gaza is the most populated, with Gaza City.</p>
<p><strong><span>RAZ</span> <span>SEGAL</span>:</strong> Yeah,
definitely. I mean, as is well known, this is an impossible order. It’s
impossible for specific groups of people — people in hospitals, people
defined as disabled, elderly people — many Palestinians who refuse to
leave their homes because of their histories and their memories of the
Nakba. This is an impossible order. It’s yet another indication of the
intent to destroy, the intent to commit genocide.</p>
<p>It’s also worthwhile to emphasize Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, a
new term that he coined, “complete siege.” It seems like a completely
new term that really takes what was already a 17-year siege on Gaza, the
longest in modern history, which was already a clear violation of
international humanitarian law — it takes this siege and now turns it
into a complete siege, which really signals the turn to this kind of
genocidal destruction that we’re seeing, including with this eviction
order.</p>
<p>It’s also worthwhile to try to explain, I think, why Israel is so
explicit in its declaration. We’ve heard Israel’s president talk about
evil. We’ve also heard about Biden’s use of the word “evil.” EU leaders
describe the Hamas attack as “evil.” And it has to be said, the Hamas
attack were clear war crimes, the mass murder of more than 1,000 Israeli
civilians, a horrendous war crime that rightfully shocked many Israelis
and many, many people around the world. But “evil” is not a term to
describe them. “Evil” is a term to decontextualize. “Evil” is a term to
demonize and to really enhance the widespread fantasies of Israelis
today that they’re fighting Nazis. Actually, former Prime Minister
Bennett, Naftali Bennett, said that directly in an interview yesterday:
“We are fighting Nazis.” We see this and many, many other indications in
Israeli society and politics today. And if we’re fighting Nazis, then
everything is permissible.</p>
<p><strong><span>AMY</span> <span>GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Professor Segal — </p>
<p><strong><span>RAZ</span> <span>SEGAL</span>:</strong> No law —</p>
<p><strong><span>AMY</span> <span>GOODMAN</span>:</strong> I actually
wanted to go to the former prime minister, Naftali Bennett, who’s
currently in the Israeli army. This is from a few days ago, where he
exploded at the Sky News anchor Kamali Melbourne during an interview
Thursday, when Melbourne pressed him on Israel’s attacks on Palestinian
civilians. This is a part of what he said.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> What
about those Palestinians in hospital who are on life support and babies
in incubators, whose life support and incubator will have to be turned
off because the Israelis have cut the power to Gaza?</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> Are you
seriously keep on asking me about Palestinian civilians? What’s — what’s
wrong with you? Have you not seen what happened? We’re fighting Nazis.
We don’t target them. Now, the world can come and bring them anything
they want, if you want to bring them electricity. I’m not going to feed
electricity or water to my enemies. If anyone else wants, that’s fine.
We’re not responsible for them.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> But this is the point —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> But you keep on —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> This is the point —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> You — I want to tell you —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> No, no, Mr. Bennett, this is the point.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> No. No, listen.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> Listen.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> You listen to me right now.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> No, you’re raising your voice. And we’re trying —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> I’ve heard you enough.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> No, no, I understand. We’re trying to have a conversation here.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> I’ve heard a lot of you.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> Listen, this is my program.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> No, you’re not having a —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> This is my show.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> And that’s exactly —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> And I am asking the questions. You’re raising your voice.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> But it’s my country.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> And I’ve asked you. And we’ve already —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> And when people — when people —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> We’ve already — stop, please.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> When people —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> And let me finish. We’ve already distinguished —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> Shame on you, Mister.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> — between Hamas —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> I want to tell you, you — shame on you.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> You’re trying to speak over me.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> Because we are not —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> No, no.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> Shame on you.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> It’s nothing about shame.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> I am the — I was the prime minister.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> We’re trying to have a conversation —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> There is absolutely shame.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> — about a very serious situation here.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>NAFTALI</span> <span>BENNETT</span>:</strong> Because when you just jump —</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><strong><span>KAMALI</span> <span>MELBOURNE</span>:</strong> And you are refusing to address it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><strong><span>AMY</span> <span>GOODMAN</span>:</strong> So, that is
the former Israeli prime minister, Naftali Bennett, exploding at the Sky
News anchor Kamali Melbourne. Professor Segal, you’re an Israeli
historian. This is what you’re talking about, when he uses the Nazi
analogy and also when he says, “Are you seriously talking about
Palestinian civilians?” Your response?</p>
<p><strong><span>RAZ</span> <span>SEGAL</span>:</strong> That’s exactly
what we’re — it’s very important to understand this context, the idea of
fighting Nazis, the idea of using Holocaust memory in this way. There
is a broad context, a long history, of course, of this shameful use of
Holocaust memory, which Israeli politicians have used to justify,
rationalize, deny, distort, disavow mass violence against Palestinians.
And it has allowed also a view to develop that sees Israel as somehow
exceptional, providing it impunity. The truth, however, is that all
perpetrators of genocide actually see their victims as dangerous, as
vicious, as inhuman, right? That’s how the Nazis saw the Jews. And
that’s how today Israelis see Palestinians.</p>
<p>And that’s why the lessons of the Holocaust, actually, which were
never meant to provide cover and rationalize state violence and
genocide, but, rather, protect groups, especially stateless and
defenseless groups, groups under military occupation and siege, from
violent states — the lessons of the Holocaust are now very, very urgent.
We need to center the voices of those facing state violence and
genocide, and we need to move to prevention as fast as possible. In
order to do that, we need to recognize what’s going on around us, what’s
unfolding in front of our eyes, which is really a textbook case of
genocide, with the rhetoric, with the actions, with everything involved.</p>
<p><strong><span>AMY</span> <span>GOODMAN</span>:</strong> Raz Segal is
associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton
University and the endowed professor in the study of modern genocide. He
is an Israeli historian. His new <a href="https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide">article</a> for <em>Jewish Currents</em>,
we’ll link to, “A Textbook Case of Genocide.” The subtitle, “Israel has
been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world
listening?” Back in 30 seconds.</p></div><p>The original content of this program is licensed under a <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/us/">Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License</a>.
Please attribute legal copies of this work to <a href="http://democracynow.org">democracynow.org</a>. Some of
the work(s) that this program incorporates, however, may be separately
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