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<div class="header reader-header reader-show-element" dir="ltr"> <font
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href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/kushners-threat-to-palestine-an-interview-with-norman-finkelstein/">https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/kushners-threat-to-palestine-an-interview-with-norman-finkelstein/</a></font>
<h1 class="reader-title">Kushner’s Threat to Palestine: An
Interview with Norman Finkelstein</h1>
<span class="post_author_intro">by</span> <span
class="post_author" itemprop="author"><a
href="https://www.counterpunch.org/author/colter-louwerse/"
rel="nofollow">Colter Louwerse</a> - August 20, 2019</span></div>
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<p><em><strong>Norman Finkelstein is a leading authority
on the Israel-Palestine conflict. While most
observers have proclaimed Jared Kushner’s ongoing
‘peace’ initiative to be dead in the water, Norman
warns that it may pose a serious threat to the
Palestinians. In part 1 of this interview, I spoke
with him about what we can expect from the Kushner
initiative going forward.</strong></em></p>
<p><strong>What is the end goal of the Kushner-led ‘peace’
process? </strong></p>
<p>The Trump administration hasn’t demonstrated focus or
consistency at the diplomatic level. But I don’t agree
with all the talk that the Kushner plan is “dead on
arrival”.</p>
<p>The prime mover behind the Kushner plan is neither
Israel nor the US. It’s Saudi Arabia. Saudi covets an
open alliance with the Israelis and the US. It fears the
Iran axis. It’s a feudal despotism largely impotent on
its own; it needs others to pull its chestnuts out of
the fire. Witness the Saudi debacles in Yemen and Syria.
On a more immediate level, there’s the Khashoggi
affair—MBS (Muhammad Bin Salman) is desperate to be
rehabilitated in Washington. If Saudi enters into an
open alliance with Israel, even liberal members of
Congress will forgive his “indiscretions.” So the Saudis
harbor strong motives to push through the Kushner plan.
The one and only obstacle to an open alliance with
Israel is the Palestine Question. If they can resolve
it, or <em>appear</em> to resolve it, then it’s clear
sailing.</p>
<p>What do the Israelis get out of it? They’ve already
gotten from Trump recognition of Jerusalem and the Golan
as belonging to Israel. The Kushner plan’s political
component will almost certainly include recognition of
what’s called the “major settlement blocs” as belonging
to Israel. That’s about 10 percent of the West Bank on
the “Israeli” side of the wall. For now, Israel doesn’t
want the rest of the territory because it doesn’t want
all those Arabs. It will be said by Trump supporters,
correctly, that the whole elite establishment in the
US—liberal to conservative, Democrat to Republican—has
always supported Israeli annexation of the settlement
blocs.</p>
<p>However, recognition won’t be a huge victory for
Netanyahu because the Trump regime is too eccentric.
It’s possible that if Trump is defeated in 2020, the
Democratic president will resume the status quo ante and
pretend the Trump years never happened. Then we’d be
back to Jerusalem, the Golan, and the settlement blocs
having the same status as in prior US administrations.</p>
<p>What would be a huge victory for Netanyahu would be an
open alliance with Saudi Arabia. It would spell the
official end of the Arab League. One of the core
unifying elements of the Arab League was opposition to
Israel. The Gulf states will realign with Israel,
alongside Egypt and Jordan. Israel’s biggest diplomatic
victories in the Arab world were Camp David, 1978
(Egypt’s defection from the “Arab Front”), and Oslo,
1993 (the PLO’s de facto collaboration with the US and
Israel). A Saudi-Gulf open realignment would be Israel’s
third big diplomatic victory.</p>
<p><strong>What does the United States stand to gain from
this? </strong></p>
<p>The US motive has actually not been disguised. You have
to pay attention to the language; they call it the “<em>Deal
</em>of the Century”. Trump, Jared and Ivanka are
business people. They don’t really care about politics
per se, except as a vehicle for personal enrichment.
They just want to cut deals. Jared sees the Gulf as
chock full of real estate deals. It could become his
playground <em>literally</em> for life as MBS, Saudi’s
ruler for life, would be indebted to Jared for life.</p>
<p>The Palestinians don’t have many options. In the case
of Gaza, the leadership has to show something for all
the suffering in the Great March of Return. The Saudis
will be able to offer them, alongside desperately needed
funds, a partial lifting of the blockade. Israel would
probably go along with it.</p>
<p>The Palestinian leadership has only ever cared about
squirreling away money in their private bank accounts
and paying the P.A.’s employees. It’s always been a
corrupt patronage system. (The likes of pathetic Saeb
Erekat also enjoy the pretenses and pageantry of power.)
There was a very calculated policy by the US over the
past couple of years to bankrupt the PA in order to
soften it for the “Deal of the Century”. The Palestinian
Authority is now broke, and desperate. Abbas is just
bargaining as he says “No, No, No”; he wants to see how
much money he can wring out of Washington and Riyadh.
PLO hack Hanan Ashrawi says that the Palestinians can’t
be bought for a “fistful of dollars.” True enough; they
demand two fistfuls.</p>
<p>None of what I’ve suggested is set in stone. Consider
the precursors–Carter and Clinton. Carter’s tenacity and
grasp of micro-detail during the Camp David talks in
1978 was terrifying. It was said of Clinton that he knew
every street in Jerusalem by the end of the 2000
(abortive) negotiations. To seal a deal does require
that kind of laser-like focus.</p>
<p>Is Trump or anyone around him capable of that focus? At
some level Saudi-US dollars can’t on their own set all
the pieces in place. You need people who are equipped to
do the tough negotiating.</p>
<p>That’s the level where things might not fall into
place. But at the level of generality, all this talk
about “it’s dead” and “Kushner is an idiot”– well, he <em>is
</em>an idiot but it’s beside the point because if you
look at the balance of political forces and the
converging political agendas of the main players, it’s
possible.</p>
<p><strong>If the Trump administration is successful will
the international consensus on the two-state
settlement erode? </strong></p>
<p>It will erode: once the dollars start rolling in, the
Palestinians will do whatever suits their bankrollers.
But at some point a new generation will undoubtedly
emerge that demands the dignity of equality before the
law.</p>
<p>The two-state settlement will then be over<em>.</em> If
there is a resolution along the Trump-Saudi-Israeli
lines, at least one generation will have to pass before
a new leadership arises with a new vision, which will
probably be one state. I won’t be around to see it. John
Brown didn’t live to see the abolition of slavery. I
will have been one link in the chain, one rung on
Jacob’s Ladder.</p>
<p><strong>***</strong></p>
<p><strong>What can we expect to come out of the State of
Palestine’s case against Israel at the ICC? </strong></p>
<p>The ICC is a very corrupt place. The former chief
prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, has been steeped in
personal (sexual assault), political, and financial
corruption. The iniquity of the current chief
prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, reaches back to her judicial
role during the Gambian military junta. Of late, she has
been fighting tooth and nail not to investigate Israeli
criminality.</p>
<p>My guess is, initially, she feared being Goldstoned.<sup><a
id="post-114222-footnote-ref-1"
href="#post-114222-footnote-1">[1]</a></sup> She
knew the Mossad would track down the 10,000 skeletons in
her closet and she would end up like Richard Goldstone.
So she had a strong personal motive to quash the
complaints lodged against Israel in the ICC.</p>
<p>Then, an institutional motive emerged as US Secretary
of State Pompeo and National Security Advisor Bolton
publicly declared that if the ICC investigated the US or
Israel, the Trump administration would destroy the ICC.
They were very blunt about it. And they’ve already set
about it. When Bensouda attempted to launch a
preliminary examination of US crimes in Afghanistan, she
was immediately stripped of her US visa. Every ICC
member has a t-shirt that says, “I LOVE NEW YORK”. The
US message was clear: “Investigate Israel and you’ll
never see Times Square again.” It worked like a charm.
The pre-trial chamber overruled Bensouda and dropped the
case.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a civil war has erupted in the ICC.
There are forces within it that have been pushing back
as they demand that Bensouda investigate Israeli crimes.</p>
<p>There are two referrals before the ICC now. One relates
to the “Flotilla Incident” (<em>Mavi Marmara</em>) in
2010, and the second is the State of Palestine complaint
relating mostly to the illegal Israeli settlements,
Operation Protective Edge (2014) and the Great March of
Return (ongoing). Bensouda has spent the past six years
trying to bury the <em>Mavi Marmara</em> case. She
keeps declaring the case closed but forces in the ICC
keep replying “No, you have to investigate Israel.”</p>
<p>The stakes are very high. If Bensouda closes both
complaints without even launching an investigation, its
transparent that she’s completely corrupt. But if she
indicts on <em>any</em> complaint, the US will set
about destroying the ICC. The book I’ve written
demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that Bensouda has
been whitewashing Israel. It poses two choices to
Bensouda: indict Israel or step down. There is no third
option.</p>
<p><strong>But even if the ICC chooses to indict there is
no chance that any Israeli general is ever going to
stand trial. </strong></p>
<p>Absolutely.</p>
<p><strong>So, many would say, What’s the point?</strong></p>
<p>It’s like the International Court of Justice (ICJ)
advisory opinion in 2004, which declared the wall Israel
has been building in the West Bank illegal. It’s another
weapon in the arsenal of the Palestinians in the battle
for public opinion. It would place on the public record
that the two leading judicial bodies in the world, the
ICJ and ICC, have both found Israel guilty of egregious
international crimes. This is a powerful weapon to
persuade public opinion if and when a Palestinian mass
movement emerges that is truly committed to fighting the
occupation.</p>
<p><strong>Notes</strong></p>
<p>1. After a UN Fact-Finding Mission led by the esteemed
South African judge Richard Goldstone concluded that the
goal of Israel’s 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead had been
to “punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian
population” in Gaza, Israel responded with a torrent of
personal attacks until Goldstone (but not his coauthors)
recanted the report, effectively destroying his career.
<a href="#post-114222-footnote-ref-1">↑</a></p>
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