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dir="ltr"> <font size="-2"><a class="domain reader-domain"
href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/22/a-watershed-moment-in-palestinian-history-interview-with-jamal-juma/">https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/22/a-watershed-moment-in-palestinian-history-interview-with-jamal-juma/</a></font>
<h1 class="reader-title">A Watershed Moment in Palestinian
History: Interview with Jamal Juma’</h1>
<span class="post_author_intro">by</span> <span
class="post_author" itemprop="author"><a
href="https://www.counterpunch.org/author/trust4spayahebr/"
rel="nofollow">Ida Audeh</a> - June 22, 2018</span></div>
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<p><em>
For weeks now, Palestinians everywhere have been
galvanized by events taking place in the Gaza Strip,
the site of weekly (since March 30) mass protests
demanding the end of the siege and blockade of Gaza
(in place now since 2007) and the right to return to
the homes from which they or their elders had been
kicked out. Dubbed the Great March of Return, Gazans
have assembled as close as they can to the
Israeli-designated buffer zone separating Gaza from
Israel. Israeli soldiers at a distance, crouched
behind earth barriers that they created in the days
preceding the march, and at absolutely no danger of
attack from the unarmed protestors, pick off
demonstrators at their leisure. By June 14, at least
129 Palestinians had been killed and 13,000 injured;
the dead included medics like the 21-year-old Razan
al-Najjar and journalists including Yaser
Murtaja—typically seen as off-limits in conflict zones
but transformed by Israel into prime targets.</em></p>
<p><em>On June 4, Ida Audeh spoke to Jamal Juma’,
coordinator of the Palestinian Grassroots
Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign, about the popular
resistance in Gaza, the Trump administration’s policy
toward the question of Palestine, and Palestinian
options to chart a new course. Salah Khawaja, an
activist who works with the campaign, joined the
conversation.</em></p>
<p><em>Ida Audeh: I interviewed you in August 2011 to
learn more about the separation wall and its effect on
communities in its path.[2] Describe Israel’s current
system of control over the occupied territories, of
which the wall is a part.</em></p>
<p>Jamal Juma’: It is clear that the wall was designed to
isolate and lay siege to Palestinians. The project to
place Palestinians under siege by means of the wall has
been completed. It closed off all the dynamic areas that
Israel considered necessary to isolate various areas.
Eighty percent of the Wall is within the West Bank. The
second part of the siege is reinforcement of the
settlements. Each settlement has what Israel calls a
buffer zone – a security apparatus consisting of barbed
wire and roads that Palestinians are not allowed to use.
This, together with the alternative (bypass) roads
(which we call the apartheid roads), allows them to
control the territory. Today there are two road
networks: one is for Israeli settlers, about 1,400 km
long, and its purpose is to connect all settlements to
one another and to Israel in a kind of network. And this
is complete. This network is the dominant one in the
West bank, and it includes the major roads. The other,
the alternative roads, are for Palestinians to use;
these roads will intersect through 48 planned tunnels
and bridges, some of which have been created already.
The two road systems are separate. This is the basis of
the racist discriminatory system we talk about:
isolating Palestinians and confining them in limited
spaces, control of their resources through settlements,
the road network, and military installations, and the
wall, which take up about 62% of the area of the West
Bank.</p>
<p>With the extension of the settlements, we no longer
just talk about Palestinians being ghettoized in the
north, south and central region. There is more
fragmentation of Palestinian residential areas. New
settlement outposts are not being discussed in terms of
whether they should be removed or not. They are being
transformed into settlements. When you see 150 outposts,
you are really talking about 150 new settlements. This
project is being intensified, and especially since Trump
took office.</p>
<p><em>IA: So you noticed a clear acceleration after
Trump?</em></p>
<p>JJ: It’s much more than an acceleration. This is a
watershed moment in Palestinian history. We consider
that since Trump took office, US policy fully adopted
the Zionist project and embarked on a process of
liquidating the Palestinian cause, of eliminating it. It
is clear program. This began with Jerusalem and the
recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of the Zionist
entity, transfer of the embassy, targeting the refugees
by cutting financing of UNRWA, and other forms of
pressure on areas that host large numbers of refugees
including getting them settled permanently in the host
countries.</p>
<p>Israeli colonization, the geographic engineering of the
political map, is another component in the liquidation
of the Palestinian cause. Israeli proposals for
colonization are massive. They are concentrating on the
Jordan Valley – creating new settlements, expanding
existing settlements, creating the supportive
infrastructure, with huge incentives for Israelis who
work in agriculture (including cash payments of $20,000
for anyone willing to move there). Now the settlements
are on the tops of the mountain chain that overlook the
Jordan Valley, which enable them to encircle lower lying
towns. When you talk about Ariel, Ma’ale Adumim, and so
on, it will be as though the entire West Bank is a
suburb of Tel Aviv. This will make it impossible for
there to be any separation in the future, for there to
be any independent Palestinian entity; instead, an
apartheid system of cantons will be imposed on
Palestinians. This is the reality on the ground.</p>
<p>Back to the new US policy: In addition to a shift in
standing US positions on Jerusalem and the refugee
issue, there is the use of Arab countries that are ready
for normalization with Israel and eager to be aligned
with the American project – first and foremost, Saudi
Arabia, and also Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, and
Egypt, which are pressuring the Palestinians to accept
the US project to liquidate the Palestinian cause. This
has complicated things and taken it out of the sphere of
international law and the UN; everyone had previously
worked within that framework. We have been demanding the
implementation of resolutions. But the US dealt a blow
to international law.</p>
<p><em>IA: The US now proposes the “deal of the century,”
which Gulf states are eagerly endorsing. Can you
describe the contours of that deal?</em></p>
<p>JJ: The proposal is to create a Palestinian state in
Gaza with extensions into the Sinai Desert, to be
administered by the Palestinian Authority. The West Bank
and Jerusalem are not part of these calculations,
although Israel might be willing to give up some areas
around Jerusalem that are densely populated with
Palestinians. (This part of the proposal has been
floated by extremist Israeli groups even before the
Trump proposal.) They might be willing to remove from
Greater Jerusalem areas with high Palestinian density,
like Jabal Mukkaber, Isawiya, Silwan, and Sur Bahir;
there has been some discussion about removing Beit
Hanina and Shufat. The Israelis would retain control of
the Jewish settlements and the Old City, which together
make up about 87% of the area of East Jerusalem—not
exactly a small territory.</p>
<p><em>IA: What is the Palestinian response to these
plans?</em></p>
<p>JJ: On the formal political level, the PA is in a
crisis. It placed its faith in the US, but now US
determination to liquidate the Palestinian cause is very
clear. The only real option remaining to the PA is to
cast its lot with the Palestinian people and on free
people around the world, international solidarity and
movements that support us. The Palestinian people have
to make a decision, and so does the PA.</p>
<p>On the popular level, we see serious activity in search
of an alternative to the status quo, the largest and the
most important of which is taking place now in Gaza with
the Great March of Return. These actions are important
for a number of reasons. They changed the stereotypes
about Gaza as a launchpad for rockets, a place of
terrorism that has been hijacked by Hamas. In fact, the
marches in Gaza since March 30 represent a widespread
popular movement, massive popular resistance. Just like
the first intifada emerged from Jabaliya in the Gaza
Strip, today we have the beginnings of a mass civil
disobedience movement. Gaza has a population that is
resisting, and Hamas does not control this resistance.
The discourse we generally hear, that Hamas is leading
people to their death, should be recognized as racist
and dehumanizing. People are not robots. Gazans of all
ages, family situations, and economic and educational
levels are taking part in these marches to raise their
cause to the world. These people are saying that the
siege of Gaza cannot continue. We are human beings, we
have rights, and one of those rights is to live like
human beings. Gaza is no longer inhabitable. Gaza has
been turned into a prison and a hell. Even the UN
acknowledges that. The numbers around Gaza are just
astounding.[3]</p>
<p>The Great March has returned focus on the refugee issue
and put it squarely on the table despite all the efforts
to ignore and erase it. More than 70% of Gaza residents
are refugees, and they are demanding the right to return
to their original hometowns.</p>
<p>For that reason, the marches in Gaza are very important
in defining the trajectory of the Palestinian question
and restoring the role of popular resistance to the
forefront. They lay the popular foundation for the
coming phase. They might also have prevented another
massive disaster. I think Israel was preparing to
implement the Trump administration’s proposals; the
scenario that the Israelis were planning for was to pull
Gaza into a military confrontation, which would justify
more intense bombing than it has done in the past. The
borders with Egypt would open, and people would flee
into Egypt. But the march with its mass participation
thwarted that plan.</p>
<p><em>IA: I find it hard to understand how Ramallah can
be so tranquil considering the carnage in Gaza.</em></p>
<p>JJ: It might seem that what is happening in the West
Bank is not at all comparable to what is happening in
Gaza. And that is true, it isn’t as massive. But actions
are taking place in the West Bank, and they are also
important. On a weekly basis people are gathering to
protest at the checkpoints. Since 2011 there have been
continuous outbursts (in Arabic, <em>habbat</em>); for
example, in Jerusalem in the Bab al-Shams encampment and
in the aftermath of the Abu Khdeir and Dawabshe killings
(January 2013, July 2014, and July 2015,
respectively).[4] These outbursts were significant and
exemplary, the way Gaza is today. They reminded us of
what the Palestinian people are capable of doing. I
expect that these outbursts here and there will lead to
widespread civil disobedience. Young people in Jerusalem
and the West Bank have been going out to checkpoints in
the hundreds, on a daily basis, and these conditions put
one in the mindset of the first intifada.</p>
<p>We should take note of what Palestinians in Israel are
doing as well. There are youth movements that are taking
action in ways that are very impressive and a source of
pride. They defy the occupation and they involve large
numbers of people, in Haifa and elsewhere.</p>
<p><em>IA: Let’s look at the relationship of Palestinians
to formal political bodies. Recently the Palestinian
National Council held its first meeting in 22 years.
One might have thought that over the course of more
than two decades, several issues and events warranted
a meeting – regional events, the assassination of
Yasir Arafat, and the status of the Oslo accords come
to mind. But the convening of the PNC doesn’t seem to
have generated much popular interest.</em></p>
<p>JJ: People did not pay much attention to it, but in
fact they should be talking about it because it poses a
threat. Meeting for the first time in 22 years, it did
not even discuss what it has done since the last
meeting! What it did do is effectively cancel itself,
which means it is changing the structure of the PLO.
There is an attempt to replace the Central Committee
with a body consisting of the private sector, the
political currents in the PA today, and elements of the
security apparatus. No representation of Palestinians
from the 1948 areas, or the diaspora, or even the
Palestinian street. This is a threat to the Palestinian
project.</p>
<p>The PLO as it has been transformed by Mahmoud Abbas
threatens the national cause. It has been hijacked; our
task is to restore it as a representative and unifying
entity that works to support the Palestinian cause. The
reform should be led by Palestinian groups and
movements.</p>
<p>People have no confidence in the leadership; they don’t
think it is capable of leading in the coming phase. In
fact, the outbursts I referred to earlier had the
potential of triggering a third intifada. People were
waiting for a leadership to emerge, as happened during
the first intifada; three months into the intifada, a
unified leadership emerged and took charge. But this
time, the PA wasn’t interested in assuming that role;
three months into these protests, the PA sent its people
to disrupt actions and prevent young people from
gathering at checkpoints. The national factions were
unable to form a unified leadership for obvious reasons.</p>
<p><em>IA: What is the alternative?</em></p>
<p>JJ: People have to create a national movement that can
lead the change. What will lead the movement for change
will not be a single individual. It will be a widespread
national movement that has a real relationship with
people on the ground, a movement that will direct the
street. This is the only way change will take place.
People have been waiting for a long time, but who are we
waiting for? There is not going to be a great
charismatic leader. We don’t talk about a heroic leader,
we talk about a heroic people and a leadership of
institutions.</p>
<p>We want a Palestinian state that represents all
Palestinians. Within that broad outline, we say that
right now, we have to protect the Palestinian project –
the right to self-determination, and we all struggle for
that right. We don’t have to get into a discussion about
the final outcome. The time for the two state solution
is clearly over—and in fact, that proposal provided the
basis for trying to destroy our cause. The other option
is clear. But like I said, we don’t want that discussion
to detract from our focus now or to place us in conflict
with the position of the PLO.</p>
<p>How do we support the Palestinian project? We have to
confront what is happening in Jerusalem, the
settlements. There has to be a practical program, not
just slogans on paper. Palestinians in the diaspora
should support these activities, get involved in the
boycott movement, because we are part of that boycott
movement. We are trying to keep the political work and
the boycott movement separate to protect the boycott
movement, because there is a Palestinian effort underway
to weaken the BDS movement; through normalization, by
invoking the PLO position. We consider the boycott
movement an essential component of our activism.</p>
<p>This is what people are discussing today, here and with
our people in the 1948 areas, and in the diaspora. There
has to be a movement that preserves the unity of the
Palestinian people and protects the national cause from
liquidation. That’s what we are working on now. I expect
that in the next few weeks there will be a meeting to
put in writing some of the agreed upon principles
underlying all of these actions. Many meetings have
taken place, and they are being expanded.</p>
<p>SK: We are looking at all ways to get all Palestinians
to participate under a banner of a common cause that
unites us all. In the 1948 areas, the issue is
colonization and civil rights, but Palestinians within
Israel don’t find themselves too far apart from those in
the West Bank and Gaza. In the West Bank, the issues are
Judaization, settlements, attacks against the holy
sites. Those in Gaza are concerned about 12-year siege
and blockade, hunger, and murder. Those in the diaspora
want the right of return. All of these are national
issues that unite us, but each location faces specific
threats.</p>
<p>The next phase will be difficult, as we figure out how
to present a vision that unites all people, especially
the youth, which have been marginalized, to be effective
participants. Since 2012, we have been in contact with
the youth. About 76% of the population is 35 years old
or younger. And yet no one is making a practical effort
to involve them in political planning and decision
making. As a campaign, we made a deliberate decision
about this. Programs grow old, and so do people. So we
need an extension, and the youth movement is part of
that. Our hope is to create a mass youth activist base
so that our energy will be renewed. We see in the
diaspora and in the 1948 areas that the majority of
activists are young – the marches in Haifa, confronting
the Judaization of the Galilee, activism around the
depopulated villages of 1948, the attempt to seize homes
in Akka — young people are confronting these issues. We
must raise the slogan of confronting colonialism, which
is the main cause of what we face. We Palestinians
have to work together, not against one another, and not
expect solutions from others.</p>
<p>What they are doing is preparatory to a major outbreak;
there will be a launch of boats to break the blockade,
and not just from Gaza, and a rush toward all entry
points to Palestine, without exception. Either we live
with dignity, or we declare an intifada on those who
deny us a life with dignity.</p>
<p>Everyone is targeted. In the West Bank, there are mass
arrests, home demolitions, checkpoints, and people on
the run. The idea of civil disobedience is not a slogan.
We can rebel against all forms of Israeli control within
the framework of a national program. Since the
international community has not acted, what prevents
Palestinians from adjacent countries from moving on mass
to the border, as occurred in 2012 (and some were able
to make it to Jaffa). Those in the diaspora might have
ongoing marches in front of Israeli embassies and its
supporters. They can paralyze Israel’s work in all
countries. These are not the usual slogans or approaches
to political work. There is no need to hold on to
agreements and positions that Israel long ago abandoned.</p>
<p>In 1948 we looked to what the international community
might give us; it gave to Israel but nothing to us.
There were conditions placed on it for recognition: its
treatment of the Palestinian minority, accepting the
Palestinian right of return, and the creation of a
Palestinian state. None of them was fulfilled. After
1967, Palestinians agreed to accept 22% of historical
Palestine, but even that was unacceptable for Israel.
Palestinians can’t continue to think in terms of what
Israel might be willing to give us.</p>
<p>We have a right to exist and to determine our own
destiny. This is the issue that concerns us.</p>
<p><strong>Notes.</strong></p>
<p>[1] “Gaza protests: All the latest updates,” Al
Jazeera, June 14, 2018, <a
href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/gaza-protest-latest-updates-180406092506561.html">https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/gaza-protest-latest-updates-180406092506561.html</a>. See
also Kate, “Israel has shot 29 medics at Gaza border,
killing two,” Mondoweiss,<a
href="http://mondoweiss.net/2018/06/israel-medics-killing/amp/">http://mondoweiss.net/2018/06/israel-medics-killing/amp/</a></p>
<p>[2] Ida Audeh, “Interview with Jamal Juma’: PA ‘killing
popular resistance.’” Electronic Intifada, August 8,
2011,<a
href="https://electronicintifada.net/content/jamal-juma-pa-killing-popular-resistance/10249">https://electronicintifada.net/content/jamal-juma-pa-killing-popular-resistance/10249</a></p>
<p>[3] “Living conditions in Gaza ‘more and more wretched’
over past decade, UN finds,” UN News, 11 July 2017, <a
href="https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/07/561302-living-conditions-gaza-more-and-more-wretched-over-past-decade-un-finds">https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/07/561302-living-conditions-gaza-more-and-more-wretched-over-past-decade-un-finds</a>.
Status Audio Journal Hosts, “Under siege: Daily life in
Gaza with Rawan Yaghi,” Jadaliyya, May 16, 2018, <a
href="http://www.jadaliyya.com/Details/37563/Under-Siege-Daily-Life-in-Gaza-with-Rawan-Yaghi">http://www.jadaliyya.com/Details/37563/Under-Siege-Daily-Life-in-Gaza-with-Rawan-Yaghi</a>. Gaza
in Context Team, “Understanding Gaza in context,”
Jadaliyya, May 16, 2018, <a
href="http://www.jadaliyya.com/Details/37562/Understanding-Gaza">http://www.jadaliyya.com/Details/37562/Understanding-Gaza</a></p>
<p>[4] The 2013 encampment known as Bab al-Shams was an
attempt by Palestinians to thwart Israeli plans to
establish a settlement on land in the E1 zone, between
East Jerusalem and the Jewish-only settlement Ma’ale
Adumim; the Israeli plan was designed to permanently
sever the West Bank from East Jerusalem. Another
encampment, Bab al-Karama, was set up in Beit Iksa and
stormed by Israeli soldiers two days later. In July
2014, Israeli settlers in Jerusalem abducted 16-year-old
Mohammad Abu Khdeir from Shufat and set him on fire; the
ensuing demonstrations resulted in 160 Palestinians
injured. Israel’s assault on Gaza began five days later.
One year later, settlers set fire to a residence in
Duma. The soul survivor of the attack was a 4-year-old
child; the child’s parents and infant brother were
killed. In 2015, a tent encampment, “Gate of Jerusalem,”
was set up in Abu Dis to protest the Israeli
government’s plans to displace Bedouin communities
there. Beginning in September 2015 and lasting until the
end of the year, protests spread from the al-Aqsa Mosque
in Jerusalem throughout the West Bank; 108 Palestinians
were killed and 12,260 were injured. Palestinians in
Israel demonstrated in solidarity.</p>
<p><em>Ida Audeh is a Palestinian from the West Bank who
lives in Colorado. She is the editor of </em><a
href="https://www.birzeit.edu/sites/default/files/university_publication/Birzeit-University-The-Story-of-a-National-Institution-EN.pdf">Birzeit
University: The Story of a National Institution</a><em>,
published by Birzeit University in 2010. She can be
reached at idaaudeh A T yahoo D O T com.</em></p>
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