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<h1 id="reader-title">600 Days: The Repatriation and
Resurrection of Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara</h1>
<p class="post_meta"> <span class="post_author_intro">by</span>
<span class="post_author" itemprop="author"><a
href="https://www.counterpunch.org/author/sw7dey5magethec/"
rel="nofollow">Nancy Scheper-Hughes</a></span> - October
27, 2017<br>
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<p><em><strong>An Interview with Dr. Jorge González,
former Director of the Cuban Forensic Institute in
Havana.</strong></em></p>
<p>Fifty years ago ‘Che’ Guevara was captured and brutally
executed in the jungles of Bolivia by Bolivian recruits
who were trained, equipped and guided by U.S. Green
Beret and CIA operatives. Almost immediately afterwards
Che was drafted into the canon of post-Catholic
sainthood. The Bolivian army’s official photograph of
Che, taken after he was executed— his head raised, eyes
open, a faint smile on his lips — became an icon of
saintly rebellion. Che’s death not only gave meaning to
his life, but to multitudes of ordinary people around
the world. His Christ-like image had immediate
resonance among the poor and oppressed of Latin America
who believed that their popular saint, ‘Querido Che’
would some day rise again. What was less anticipated was
the impact of his death on generations of young people
around the world.</p>
<p>The spiritual and political afterlife of Che, like the
afterlife of Jesus of Nazareth, begins with their brutal
torture and deaths at the hands of sadistic soldiers,
colonizing forces (Rome and the US CIA) and local
collaborators. Both men faced their capture and deaths
with equanimity and graceful acceptance of their fate
and left this world with words of consolation and ,
yes, of love. Both men were given opportunities to
surrender and save themselves, but both acquiesced to
their fate, remained true to their beliefs, and faced
their executioners with words of comfort and of love.
Che: “I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, you are
only going to kill a man… please, tell my wife to
remarry and try to be happy.” Jesus: “Father forgive
them for they know not what they do”.</p>
<p>The gospel narratives of described a man whose death
shook the earth and left his own executioners fear and
regret that they had killed a son of God. Jorge
Castaneda’s biography, <a
href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679759409/counterpunchmaga"><em>Compañero:
The Life and Death of Che Guevara</em></a> (Knopf)
and Michael Casey’s <a
href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0307279308/counterpunchmaga"><em>Che’s
Afterlife: the Legacy of an Image</em></a> refer to
an iconic photo of the dead Che that ignited a fierce
political and spiritual loyalty to the memory of the
revolutionary hero. Freddy Alborta’s photo of Che’s
lacerated body, laid out on a concrete slab surrounded
by gloating Bolivian soldiers and CIA operatives, one
callously pointing to a mortal wound, became a global
symbol of a spiritual socialist revolution. Che’s
restful body, his gentle eyes and peaceful countenance
radiated forgiveness and love. John Berger noted the
resemblance of the photo to Andrea Mantegna’s <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamentation_of_Christ_%28Mantegna%29#/media/File:The_dead_Christ_and_three_mourners,_by_Andrea_Mantegna.jpg"><em>Lamentation
over the Dead Christ</em></a>. (John Berger, 1975).
Alborta’s photo, sometimes referred to as “The Passion
of the Che” ensured that the Argentine revolutionary
would live on forever as a symbol of the spiritual
socialist cause. Displayed at meetings or rallies the
image is often accompanied by cries of “<em>Che está
Presente”- </em> Che is here with us, a real
existential presence’ similar to the “Real Presence” of
Jesus, here, present in our own bodies, minds and
spirits.</p>
<div id="attachment_97017" class="wp-caption alignnone"><img
class=" wp-image-97017"
src="https://uziiw38pmyg1ai60732c4011-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/dropzone/2017/10/FreddyAlbertoChe.jpg"
alt="" height="338" width="510">
<p class="wp-caption-text"><em>Photo by Freddy Alberto.</em></p>
</div>
<p>It took twenty years before a Cuban forensic expedition
went to the small community of <em>La Higuera</em> in
Bolivia to locate, exhume and repatriate Che’s remains
and those of his colleagues in 1997. The Cuban
expedition was led by Dr. Jorge González, then Director
of the Cuban Forensic Institute in Havana, and assisted
by key members of the Argentine Forensic Team<em>
(Equipo Argentino de Antropología Forense,</em> or
“EAAF”).</p>
<p>In January 2000 I met and interviewed Dr. González
following a lecture I gave with Dr. Hernan Reyes
(Medical Director,ICRC) at the Cuban Forensic Institute
on emerging international networks of organ and tissue
trafficking. Dr. González did not seem to be too
interested in the topic and cut out quickly. But when I
heard that he was the leader of the Bolivian forensic
expedition I asked for an interview. González guardedly
agreed to an interview but only because I was introduced
by a close colleague of his. He reminded me quite
bluntly that the CIA had a hand in the execution of a
Cuban hero and sharing his story with a North American
was something of a political and ethical dilemma.</p>
<p>For the first forty five minutes González explained
with scientific precision the methods used to locate the
site where Che’s body was haphazardly buried. The search
for Che’s remains and those of his colleagues took
exactly 600 days in Bolivia. During that time González’s
<em>equipe</em> worked without the cooperation of the
Bolivian military or police. He made clear that the
discovery was a huge scientific endeavor that included
Cuban geologists, soil experts, seismologists,
archeologists, geographers, sociologist-anthropologists,
and bone and teeth specialists.</p>
<p>When I asked González to describe that moment when he
first touched the skull and had first sense of
recognition, he said rather stiffly: ‘As a scientist I
was trained to be totally objective in retrieving the
first remains to emerge from the pit… As a scientist you
feel one thing but as a revolutionary you feel another,
for we were uncovering the bodies of our heroes.’
Throughout the doctor’s story, not all of which was
transcribed in the followed tape transcription, were
intimate details of the touching, holding close,
cradling, protecting and carefully examining the remains
of Che’s disintegrating body that was still
recognizable by his army fatigues, and his tobacco
pouch. The story was replete with Biblical references –
the sacred numbers 7,14, 40, the mysteries, the
references to Che’s suffering, The Passion of Che, one
could say. The tender care in identifying his fractures,
his prominent brow, the references to the Bolivian
soldiers washing Che’s body and his face to present
for viewing, their constant fears that the body would be
stolen, and their staying up by night and day, trying
not to fall asleep, to protect Che’s body. The
identification of the body included imagining the wounds
that were inflicted, the fractures, the missing hands,
the missing molar, and the pieces of recognizable
cloth. “They have pierced my hands and feet. They have
numbered all my bones.”</p>
<p>And finally, the right of González as the chief of the
forensic team, to personally guard the box that
contained Che’s remains refusing to pass the box along
to the honor guards as they passed along all the boxes,
step by step, up the stairs of a military plane at the
small landing strip in southern Bolivia. “ I held the
box to my chest and would not let it out of my sight”,
he said.</p>
<p><strong>The Interview</strong></p>
<p><em>Dr. Jorge González, head of the Cuban Forensic Team
that exhumed Ernesto Che Guevara in 1997.</em></p>
<p><em>Q: How long did this search last? </em></p>
<p>Dr. Jorge González:<em> </em>It took us 600 days. We
began our work in December 1995 and we only concluded in
1997. The only collaboration we got from the Bolivian
military was permission to search for the remains. But
we had great collaboration from other scientific teams,
especially from Argentina. We had a research protocol
followed two lines – the first was historical research.
On the other hand there was the technical-scientific
search for the remains. First of all, from the
historical point of view the team tried to determine
where the most likely site would be. We began looking at
historical documents from 1967. The historical team
followed everything that was available from all the
media: the writings, the letters of the guerillas, as
well as published articles in journals, books,
everything. The team reviewed all the Bolivian
periodicals from 1967.</p>
<p>Meanwhile the technical-scientific teams did their
research. We fed all the data into a computerized
system. All the interviews with people, all the
documents, everything went into the central database. We
classified the data according to the credibility of the
information, from zero to ten points. Zero meant that
the team as absolutely false/untrue judged the
information. So with respect to what informants told us
we separated those who were actual witnesses to the
events from those who were just repeating stories they
had heard. We graded the level of participation as zero
if they were not there at all. We gave a ten to those
who were there as direct participants in the events.
Zero was false information and we had a lot of it. After
a while the team could easily discern what was true and
what was false. Then together we studied all the data we
had. We had to reconstruct who were there at the time,
those who were in Valle Grande, Bolivia and who already
knew something about Che from those informants who were
there only temporarily like the recruits.</p>
<p>The Bolivian army had a battalion of some three hundred
sappers [combat engineers or other personnel who support
the front-line infantry] who lived there and were
already stationed there and they were used in the hunt
for Che. Eventually the high command of a whole army
division [some 2000 men] were called in and
participated in the hunt. By using both the press[the
media] and the army reports we could figure out who was
in what place at any particular time. We even tried to
reconstruct the entire/structure of the battalion.</p>
<p>In Bolivia it was extremely difficult to locate all the
people who were in the battalion and this gave us
enormous difficulties. In Cuba it is easy to locate
people, but in Bolivia it is very hard. We bought all
the telephone directories in the region and we looked up
the names of all the people to see if they were still
alive. We did not call them directly but instead through
local people who were said to be friends of Cuba. We
asked them to contact a neighbor of the person we were
interested in and to ask the questions and intervene for
us. Many would have been too frightened if we had
contacted them directly. So instead we found someone who
lived nearby who was a friend of Cuba. So, for example,
if we had been in Berkeley we would have looked you up
to help us! So one person could tell us if a particular
guy was just a soldier or was a general. Or maybe he
was a merchant or a professor in the university. Or
maybe he was just a peasant, or maybe he was already
dead. But as soon as they found out if the person was
open to an interview at the start we would go to them
directly ourselves and only if they were too frightened
to talk we used this other method. We would contact a
friend who would contact them and introduce us, just as
I am talking to you because you are here with my friend
Calixto Machado, and because Calixto sent you to me and
I trust Calixto.</p>
<p>We lived in the area of Valley Grande but following
circumstances we at times moved all over Bolivia from La
Paz to the rural zones. When we were living in in Valle
Grande the local people participated more openly in our
research. We did a sociologically study of the valley.
Our sociologist ‘accompanied’ the people and together
did a survey to find out the customs and local forms of
communication. We had both a social anthropologist and a
sociologist in our multi-disciplinary team. So we
studied the origins of Valle Grande, their ethnic
groups, the arrival of the Spaniards, and we accumulated
enough to write a book about the region. In doing this
study we had to establish a relationship and good
communication channels with the people.</p>
<p>We learned that in Bolivia there are three zones that
were very different: La Paz and the Andean Zone; The
Valley of Cochabamaba; and the Sierra where the
guerrilla warfare was. The La Paz Zone is Aymara
speaking. With the Chilwanan ethnic group we had to get
used to people talking in parables. If you asked them a
simple question they would start to tell us a story and
the story would go on and on. Or they would answer our
question with another question. So when we went to the
Chilwana zone we would always begin by asking to talk to
their chairman of the group. We would establish
relations with him and tell him what we wanted.</p>
<p>We lived in tents and we ate and prepared our food in
the mountains so we didn’t isolate ourselves and we
mingled with the local people. We suffered the same
diseases as the local people. We got lime disease
because of the ticks, and we got hepatitis A, malaria,
yellow fever, Chagas, and leptosorosis. But if we had
not lived with the people we would never have gotten the
information that we needed.</p>
<p>We entered all the data from the interviews into the
computer: Was the [executed] person buried or not
buried? Cremated or not cremated? Was the burial place
on the airstrip or not? We did an analysis and found
that we had many different versions of what happened.
When we began we had nineteen versions of what had
happened to Che’ remains. We thought that when we
finished this historical/ethnographic analysis we could
reduce the number of versions but instead we had
eighty-eight versions of what happened. Although the
versions piled up we could prioritize them in terms of
the credibility factor. Slowly we eliminated them one
by one until we were able to prioritize our #1 version
as the most plausible scenario. So, our scientific
analysis was well done with artificial intelligence, key
words, and prioritization.</p>
<p>We ended the historical and ethnographic fieldwork in
November 1995. But that year of preparatory fieldwork
was based on groundwork that had been done on the
problem since 1967. We were able to move to the next
phase because so much work had already been done, books
had been written, and we used all that information.</p>
<p>So we began the field investigations in December of
1996. The area we finally covered was twenty hectares,
that is, larger than the IPK, the Pedro Khouri Institue
[in Havana]. The area we studied was twice the size of a
Latin American baseball stadium. We were studying one
square kilometer and in the end we found him [Che] in
just 12 square meters, in Valle Grande, on the airstrip,
and in the vicinity of the old cemetery.</p>
<p>First we had to conduct a typographical survey of the
area to be considered. Each technique used had to have
the same points of reference. We looked at every kind
of photo – before, during and after the events – areal
photos, and even satellite photos. All pictures of the
zone were of interest and fed into the computer. If
there was a wall here, was it here before? Did the road
exist at that time? If there was a tree there it was
highly unlikely (30 years later) that he [Che] would
have been buried under the tree. If there was a house it
was unlikely that the body was under it.</p>
<p>The photo-detections were followed by basic soil
studies. If you want to operate on a person you have to
see and feel them first. You take the blood pressure,
you do x-rays, you palpate the body. We were going to
operate on the body of the ground. We had to study the
soil. We used an archeologist specialized in
geo-physics, and who could do geo-chemical studies. He
used an international classification of soils to see
whether there were any organic materials. When there is
a burial, there would be organic material there that he
could sample. We had to find out where the soil was
homogeneous and where it deviated from normal patterns
and to prioritize the region that fell out of the normal
range. We had the soil typography done for 20×20 meters
and in each little square we made a preformation, 1,500
drills altogether. We estimated that the burial would be
two meters down because the people said that when the
bulldozer was digging the trench you could not see the
top of the bulldozer. So we calculated the depth [of the
grave] to be about two meters deep. To do this we had to
find out what kind of bulldozer they had in V.G at that
time. We used a mathematical model to estimate the
height and width of the trench and its dirt carrying
capacity. The trench would be about 20 meters long. So
we had to divide up the ground to find a trench that was
that long. We took samples at different levels.</p>
<p>We used equipment that was not the best; today we would
do it better. But we were trying to save money and it
was proposed to us that we use certain modern equipment
costing about $20,000 but instead we used an old
fashioned drill where you have to get on top of it to
make it go. Had to have two or three people put all
their weight on it to make it function. If we were to do
it again we would pay the $20,000.</p>
<p>We had a geologist of the quaternary period – and he
examined how the valley formed, the tectonic movements
that gave rise to the valley, the mountains, the streams
and so on. The geology on one side of the airstrip was
not the same as on the other and it was easier to dig on
one side than on the other. We did every study possible
on the composition of the soil – its salts and minerals
and anything anomalous in the soil. And we produced a
three dimensional map in the computer.</p>
<p>We also did the geo-botanical studies determining which
plants were from the region, which were more than thirty
years old, the needs of each plant to find out if there
was any that thieved more in burial grounds as a way of
finding out the organic composition of the soil. We
analyzed all these, materials in December of 1996 and
ended in March of 1997.</p>
<p>In March and April of 1997 we did our analysis. We
discussed our analysis with the geophysicists,
geologists, archeologists, and we had to transmit all
the information and its significance to the teams coming
in to replace them. We had 20 hectares to study and we
identified one hectare relying mainly on geo-physics. In
the end we did not make any mistake, we kept working
with what was the right hectare. For those 10,000 square
meters we did all the studies including geo-electrical,
magnetic field studies, electrical-magnetic field, etc.
They had built an airstrip there and what movement of
earth moving the airstrip 70 years before had caused.</p>
<p>We were all living together — 6 people –in the same
house. Sometime we had arguments. We lived and worked
together and we talked to each other non stop.There
were no women with us and no children. So it was just
work, work, and more work. We worked from dawn to dusk
and we even worked with the computers. Everything that
was being done was also being filmed. And the film was
sent to Cuba where more than twenty other experts
re-analyzed everything we were doing and who would
contact us with their conclusions. We followed a strict
scientific protocol and we discussed the findings with
fifteen scientific institutes. To coordinate all these
different experts was easy but to integrate it all into
our study was more trouble.</p>
<p>In the end the Bolivian government gave us only ten
days to dig. We had originally asked for thirty days.
They replied that they would give us seven days. One
month or one week? So we decided to compromise, not your
figure, not our figure, but the mean which was ten days.
Ok,we agreed.</p>
<p>There is no simple method for detecting bones. Dogs are
of no use in detecting bodies long since dead. They are
useful at crime scenes. If someone picks up a cup the
dog can find the person who picked up that cup. But dogs
can do nothing twenty years after a burial. We had to
depend on our metrics. And the mazing thing is that we
found him on the 9thday in the 9th pit at 9 am in the
morning. If there were a lottery we would all have had
to put our money on number 9.</p>
<p>When the first bone appeared we knew that our
difficulties were over. We were totally prepared for the
forensic analysis. We had ID cards with information on
every person of the thirty-six people we were looking
for. In advance we had a complete list of all the
compañeros and what we were we were looking for: their
age, sex, ethnicity, race, height, weight, and teeth.
We had brought with us dental x-rays. We had blood
samples from members of the families. We had photos
which we could superimpose over the skulls. In short, we
had everything we needed to make positive
identifications. In that first pit we found seven. As
of today we have found twenty four in all. Soon the team
will return to complete the final exhumations.</p>
<p>We had a dental cast of Che. These were dental
impressions that were made when Che left the country in
a disguise when he left Cuba. They used a set of false
teeth that he wore over his regular teeth and the
orthodontist who did that kept the cast. We had an
anthropological forensic person who examined each tooth
described in detail. We had a description of Che’s
cavities. Just finding the teeth alone would have been
enough for us to identify him. We also did a study of
the fractures, which we knew about from the autopsy
study done in 1967.The autopsy said that there was, for
example, a fracture in the collarbone, in the ribs, and
in the breast bone of such and such a diameter. We
compared the bones we had retrieved with the autopsy
report. So, just the fracture report alone would have
been enough to identify him. But, because it was Che we
applied ever single test we could to be absolutely sure
that we had him. We knew the clothing that he was
wearing and there were photos of his last days and we
found the exact same jacket.</p>
<p><em>Q: May I interrupt you for a second? How did you
feel when you began to remove what you believed were
Che’s remains?</em></p>
<p>[ Oh, Oh! –Dr. Calixto in the background]</p>
<p>Dr. Jorge González:Well, when you find remains you
don’t always know who it is. But one of the first bones
we found was Che’s. We could hardly believe it but we
found next to the bones a piece of his belt. At this
point, of course, you still don’t know absolutely for
certain. But from our particular vantage point, we were
sure. We were sure that we had located the correct spot
and that Che was going to be among the bones that were
buried there.</p>
<p>How did I feel? I was there since December of 1995 and
every day I got up thinking: ”Will he appear or won’t he
appear? So the moment when he finally does appear I can
only summarize it as follows. Can you imagine what it
feels like to achieve something you have been searching
for 600 days? Can you know what it must feel like when
on top of that whose bones we had found? As a
revolutionary and a communist, I felt that this was
something transcendental. But as a scientist you know
it is all the result of all our scientific labor and
that we are scientists only because the revolution has
allowed us to become scientists and it was with that
science that we were able to find our <em>companero</em>
Che. So the result was both a coup for the revolution
knowing that we had performed our duty and our efforts
were rewarded. As a scientist I was trained to be
objective in retrieving the first remains to emerge from
the pit. But I already knew in my heart that it was Che
and that knowledge gave me spiritual tranquility and a
sense of pride. As a scientist you feel one thing but as
a revolutionary you feel another, for we were uncovering
the bodies of our heroes. It was a life saving event.</p>
<p>From this moment on, we used delicate brush work and
the dental instruments of the archeologist. That final
phase of forensic work took only one week. The plane
left Valle Grande when everything was ready. We were
preparing for the moment when we would find the rest
of the remains and we worried about what could possibly
happen at that moment –on our D-day when we had them out
of the graves. We had to plan our every movement. What
would happen if somebody was opposed to our taking out
the body? The Bolivian Ministry of the Interior knew
that there was a conspiracy afoot in that direction. We
were advised about that. So, on the night that we were
going to exhume all the remains, we decided that they
should not be kept in Valle Grande. And that we should
not remain there either. We made a plan in which we
pretended that we were going to arrive with the bodies
to the hospital of ValleGrande. We prepared the
hospital, put locks on the doors as if we were prepared
to receive and protect them. But when we exhumed the
remains, instead of going to the local hospital we took
them by stealth at night to the hospital at Santa Cruz
instead. Nobody was expecting that.</p>
<p>We went by land and at night, a caravan of ten vehicles
with only three with Cubans. The rest were local staff.
In the first car an Argentine and a Cuban worked
together. Yes, a Cuban and an Argentinian were at the
reins. There were people from the Ministry and of the
Interior and eight vehicles behind. We were driving as
fast as we could through the mountains. We left at 11 pm
and we arrived at Santa Cruz at 4am. The hospital was
protected by the military. “Despite all
these precautions there were hundreds of people waiting
outside the hospital who somehow by word of mouth had
managed to learn that we had arrived with the remains of
Che. We carried the bodies straight to the morgue and
we stayed there locked up for seven days. By the 6th day
we had identified everyone. We already knew by the
second day of the exhumation that for sure we had Che
and now we were here only to confirm that conclusion. We
knew that Che did not have any hands and so if there was
one among the bodies without hands we knew that it would
be Che. Even when we were digging we saw that one body
had no hands. And even before that we had recognized his
jacket. You have a skeleton without hands and a jacket
that we recognized. It was Che. But even so, in talking
to the forensic anthropologist [from Argentina] we
described the hands and the coat but the coat was
covering the skull face down.</p>
<p>I slipped my hand under the coat and felt the forehead,
which had very specific characteristics. Che had a
prominent forehead and when I felt it in my hands, I
knew I was holding Che. There was also one molar
missing, and the other forensic anthropologist, too,
felt the forehead and looked for the missing molar and
in doing he became very emotional, just as was I, for he
realized that he was touching the remains of our hero. I
told the anthropologist to see for himself if the molar
was missing and he put his hand in there and said, ‘Yes
it is, it is he’, and I could see tears in his eyes.</p>
<p>It was difficult to think that it was not him. The
hands were missing, the coat was the same, the forehead
was recognizable and the molar was missing. But despite
all that we still continued the forensic examination for
another five days. During this time someone was always
in the morgue for twenty-four hours and usually it
was a bodyguard of two of us. We slept at the morgue
next to the bodies. We never left the bodies alone. We
call this a chain of custody. We do this to protect the
body and to make sure that no one alters the evidence.
The seven days at the hospital we slept at the morgue in
addition to the seven days that we were digging. So
once again seven was our lucky number. And we were never
away from his body during all that time.</p>
<p>Then the plane came. The day before we left we knew
exactly who was who and we had to do our reports. After
the reports were completed we called for the plane to
come. Then we walked to the plane in a long line and we
passed the bodies up, one by one, all the way up the
steps to the plane, except for the last box. Che was in
this box and I held him tight to myself, close to my
chest, and I carried him up the steps and held him close
and never let him go during the flight.</p>
<p>****</p>
<p>The narrative of the excavation of Che is replete with
Biblical and New Testament images, senses, emotions and
signs. It is not that spiritual and political
radicalisms are both rooted in death but rather that
they are rooted in rituals that bring death and the dead
back into life. This is, I think, it why Jorge González
described the event as life-saving. Death rituals,
whether Catholic <em>Missa pro defunctis</em>, the
Jewish <em>kaddish</em> or the Communist excavation and
repatriation of the beloved dead body allow the mourners
to integrate the dead into their lives, to use grief to
affirm one’s beliefs and commitments and to continue the
revolution that Che or Jesus for that matter] could not
have achieved at the time of their deaths. This is what
Catholics call the resurrection of the dead.</p>
</div>
<p class="author_description"> <em><strong>Nancy
Scheper-Hughes</strong> is Chancellor’s Professor of
Medical Anthropology, University of California Berkeley.
Scheper-Hughes participated in a Vatican plenary on
Human Trafficking in April 2015. She has published a
series of articles on the “conversion” of Pope Francis,
including, “<a
href="https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/20/can-even-god-forgive-jorge-mario-bergoglio/">Can
God Forgive Jorge Bergoglio?</a>” (2013,
CounterPunch,; “<a
href="http://clas.berkeley.edu/research/religion-final-conversion-pope-francis">The Final Conversion
of Pope Francis”</a> (with Jennifer S. Hughes), and “<a
href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/american-anthropological-association/face-to-face-with-pope-fr_b_8208534.html">Face
to Face with Pope Francis</a>” (2015), Huffington
Post. </em> </p>
</div>
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