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<h1>“We are witnessing the twilight of democracy”</h1>
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<p><span class="date">26.06.2015<br>
<b><small><small><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.theeuropean-magazine.com/tariq-ali/10315-tariq-ali-on-european-democracy">http://www.theeuropean-magazine.com/tariq-ali/10315-tariq-ali-on-european-democracy</a></small></small></b><br>
</span></p>
<p><span class="date"></span>Instead of worrying too much about
the extreme left and right, we should focus more on the extreme
center, says writer <big><big><b>Tariq Ali</b></big></big>. He
spoke to Creston Davis about the decline of democracy and German
hegemony in Europe.</p>
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<p><strong>Creston Davis: Mr. Ali, with regards to your most recent
book, <em>The Extreme Center: A Warning</em>, what are the
characteristics that define extremism in your opinion?</strong><br>
Tariq Ali: For one, continuous wars—which we have now had since
2001—starting with Afghanistan, continuing on to Iraq. And even
since Iraq, it’s been more or less continuous. The appalling war
in Libya, which has wrecked that country and wrecked that part of
the world, and which isn’t over by any means. The indirect Western
intervention in Syria, which has created new monsters. These are
policies, which if carried out by any individual government, would
be considered extremist. Now, they’re being carried out
collectively by the United States, backed by some of the countries
of the European Union. So that is the first extremism. The second
extremism is the unremitting assault on ordinary people, citizens
inside European and North American states, by a capitalist system
which is rapacious, blind, and concerned with only one thing:
making money and enhancing the profits of the 1%. So I would say
that these two are the central pillars of the extreme center. Add
to that the level of surveillance and new laws which have been put
on the statute books of most countries: the imprisonment of people
without trial for long periods, torture, its justification, etc.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: Normally we think of extremes on the far right and
the far left. In this case, you are articulating an extreme of
the center. How did you arrive at that analysis?</strong><br>
Ali: Well, I was giving a talk and in response to a question on
the extreme left and the extreme right, I said that while these
forces exist, they’re not very strong—through the extreme right is
getting stronger. I observed that the reason the extreme right is
getting stronger is because of the extreme center, and then I
explained it. So that’s how the idea developed. The people at the
talk were interested, and so I developed it further and thought
about it over the next months. Many people were intrigued by it,
and so I sat down and wrote this little book.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: The book also addresses the “suicide of Western
politics.” What are the basic elements of that?</strong><br>
Ali: It’s not just politics. Basically, we are witnessing the
twilight of democracy. I’m not the first to say it, and I won’t be
the last. Others have dealt with the issue. Peter Mair—alas no
longer with us—who used to teach at the European University, wrote
a book for instance which was published posthumously. Also the
German sociologist Wolfgang Streeck, who has been mapping what has
been happening to democracy in the European Union and elsewhere.
I’ve developed from some of these people’s writings the idea that
the extreme center is the political expression of the neoliberal
state. That economics and politics are so intertwined and
interlinked that politics now, mainstream politics, extreme center
politics, are little else but a version of concentrated economics.
And this means that any alternative—alternative capitalism, left
Keynesianism, intervention by the state to help the poor, rolling
back the privatizations—becomes a huge issue. The entire weight of
the extreme center and its media is turned against it, which in
reality now is beginning to harm democracy.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: Do you think there is hope in the rise of Syriza,
Podemos, Sinn Féin and other Left political parties?</strong> <br>
Ali: Well, I think Syriza and Podemos are very, very different
from Sinn Féin in many ways, and so I wouldn’t put all three
together. I would say that Syriza and Podemos are movements which
have come out of mass struggles. In the case of Podemos, directly
out of huge mass movements in Spain, which started with the
occupation of the square. In Greece, as a response to what the EU
was doing there, punishing it endlessly, for the sins of its
ruling elite. And so the response of the people was finally to
elect the Syriza government to take on the Troika and set them up
with a new alternative. Its future will depend very much on
whether they’re able to do so or not.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: Do you think they will?</strong><br>
Ali: At the moment we have a critical situation in Greece. Even as
we speak, where there is an open attempt by the EU to destroy
Syriza by splitting it. There is a German obstinacy and utter
refusal to seriously consider an alternative. The reason isn’t
even a lack of money, because money swims around the EU coffers
endlessly, and they could write off the debt tomorrow if they
wanted. But they don’t want to do so, because of the election of a
left-wing government. They want to punish Syriza in public, to
humiliate it so that this model doesn’t go any further than
Greece. We are seeing a struggle between the Syriza government and
the Troika—as well as the American side, the IMF—with very little
room for any compromise. In my opinion, Syriza has already gone
too far.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: What would the latter choice look like?</strong> <br>
Ali: They could just say, “No, this is not a debt which has been
incurred by the Greek people. This is a debt incurred by the
elite, and the reason this debt has mounted is because our books
were not in order when we were let into the Euro currency, and the
Germans knew that. The whole of Europe knew that.” They could
refuse to pay and chart a new course. Whether they can do this on
their own without the support of the Greek people is a moot point.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: How has the idea of economics hijacking politics
played out in the European Union more generally?</strong><br>
Ali: The European Union is a union of the extreme center. It’s a
banker’s union. You see how they operate in country after country,
appointing technocrats to take over and run countries for long
periods. They did it in Greece; they did it in Italy; they
considered it in other parts of Europe. So it’s effectively a
union dominated by the German political and economic elite. Its
main function is to serve as a nucleus for financial capitalism
and to ease the road for that capitalism. The other functions just
irritate everyone: it’s undemocratic; decisions are not made by
parliament; the European Parliament is not sovereign. How could it
be when Europe is divided into so many different states? The
decisions are all made by the representatives of the different
members of the European Union, i.e. the governments of Europe,
which are extreme center governments in most cases. And so, the
European Union has lost virtually all of its credibility amongst
large swaths of the European population. In recent election in
Britain for instance, the big point of debate—among a few
others—between the Labour and Conservative parties was whether or
not to have a referendum on Europe, whether or not to allow people
to state their choice, to vote on how they feel in relation to
Europe.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: And in other parts of Europe?</strong> <br>
Ali: Effectively, the EU is a very powerful bureaucracy, dominated
now by the German elite, which is backed by the rest of the
European Union members. If you go to former Yugoslav states, the
Balkan states, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovenia, the
situation is dire. Not to mention Bosnia, which is just run like a
colony. The way they used to stand up and sing hymns to President
Tito, they now salute the EU flag. It’s a very strange transition
that we’re witnessing in most of Europe, and I don’t think it’s
going to work. I think another crisis, which is being predicted
now and which will be worse than what we saw in 2008, could bring
the European Union down unless there are huge reforms from within
to democratize, to give more power to the regions, etc. If this
doesn’t happen, the European Union will fall.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: Many intellectuals here in Athens agree with you
that the EU is backed by the German elite. Some even go as far
as to say that it’s Germany trying to take control of Europe
once again.</strong> <br>
Ali: I know this argument. It’s not invisible. It’s there for
everyone to see. But I think to compare it to the Third Reich is
utterly ludicrous. Germany is a capitalist state nurtured
carefully and brought back to prosperity by the United States, and
it is very loyal to the United States. I don’t even think the
Germans enjoy full sovereignty. There are some things which they
cannot do if the United States doesn’t wish them to do it. So, one
cannot discuss Europe without understanding US imperial hegemony,
both globally and certainly in Europe as it stands. It’s an
alliance that the Americans control, in which the EU of course has
a great deal of autonomy, but in which it still is very dependent
on the United States, especially militarily, but not only in that
respect. So to blame the Germans for everything is an easy way out
for some of those suffering in Europe today. At the time of German
Reunification, it was no secret that Germany would soon become the
strongest political entity in the European Union. And that has
happened.</p>
<p><strong>Davis: So it was inevitable that Germany would act this
way?</strong><br>
Ali: Any country in that position would exert its authority. The
real problem is the total capitulation of German social democracy
to capitalism, reflected and symbolized by actual extreme center
coalition governments in Germany, which have been in power for a
long time and still are even as we speak. That is the real
problem: that there is no serious opposition in Germany at all.
And the Left party is divided. There are huge political problems
in that country, but German economic power is something which was
bound to happen. The way out of this situation is through the
further democratization of the European Union and a changing of
its structures. The current Eurozone is obviously dysfunctional.
And serious people within Germany and elsewhere know this to be
the case and know things cannot function this way forever. If
there is a Greek exit from the Eurozone, I think the German elite
will be quite pleased that they can then use that to restructure
the Eurozone and make it a zone where only strong countries are
allowed in. There would then be two tiers within the European
Union, which is in fact already happening. But you cannot simply
get rid of German control by raising the specter of the Third
Reich. That’s ahistorical.</p>
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