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<div id="wrapper"> <b><big>Interview with Interior and Justice
Minister Miguel Rodriguez Torres, Part One<br>
(Part 2 Follows)<br>
</big></b>
<div id="bigLeft">
<p class="byLine"><span id="date">September 20, 2013</span> <br>
<br>
By <b>Miguel Rodriguez Torres</b> <br>
and <b>Michael Albert</b><br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/migueltorres">Miguel
Rodriguez Torres's ZSpace Page</a> <br>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%; margin-left: 40px;"> <i
style="line-height: 150%;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";"
lang="ES-CO">In late August Michael Albert interviewed Interior and
Justice Minister of Venezuela, Miguel Rodriguez Torres, a close
confidant and long time ally of President Maduro now, and of President
Chavez earlier, on many matters critical to current events and
prospects in Venezuela. Part One appears below. Part Two can be found <a
href="http://www.zcommunications.org/interview-with-interior-and-justice-minister-miguel-rodriguez-torres-part-two-by-miguel-rodriguez-torres.html">here</a>.
Translation and aid regarding all aspects provided by Gregory Wilpert
of <a href="http://venezuelanalysis.com/">Venezuela Analysis</a>.</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Michael
Albert:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">
According to an often quoted 2008 Latinobarometro poll, Venezuelans
reported that crime and corruption is a very serious problem in
Venezuela, more so than citizens of almost any other country in Latin
america reported. However, according to the same poll, Venezuelans
experienced crime and corruption at more or less the average rate
compared to the rest of Latin America. As a result, the gap between the
perception and the incidence of crime and corruption was far higher in
Venezuela than in any other country in the region. To what do you
attribute the gap and what would you say is the true scale of the
problem?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Miguel
Rodriguez Torres: </span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Addressing
the gap between the perception and incidence of crime, I believe that
Venezuela is suffering through a problem of the mediatization of
politics. The intervention of the communication media functions not to
inform, but to create public opinion, which converts them into a sort
of political party. It thereby de-natures the informative function of
the mass media. In the year 1998, when President Chávez won the
elections in Venezuela, enjoyed, at first, a sort of honeymoon with
regard to the mass media. If you review the written press in this
period, for example, of the first months of 1999, they praised
president Chávez a lot because they thought he was a right-wing
politician. They believed that his military background would no doubt
lead to a right-wing government. The Venezuelan right and the rich
thought he would favor their interests. But, to the extent that the
president began to demonstrate that his government would not protect
the powers that be, particularly the mass media, that’s when an
enormous rupture began to take place, which came to head with the
enabling law of 2001. That’s when Chávez began to hit the interests of
the country’s oligarchy, who had dominated the political system for
many years. For example, the hydrocarbons law, the fishing law, the
land law, all of these were a direct hit to the heart of the country’s
most powerful. In the course of this rupture the mass media converted
themselves into something more than mass media, into centers of
conspiracy and into political parties. And in this context they
initiated a very tough media war, which increased the crime statistics,
so that everything that happened, they would magnify. They even went so
far as to commit crimes that they would then blame the government for
and people on the right believed that these stories were true. It is
this that caused the perception of crime to be higher than the reality
of crime.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Why
does insecurity continue to be a problem? In the first place, I believe
that what we are seeing is a coming together of accumulated social
exclusion. In the last 40 or 30 years, a generation that today is 20,
25, 30 years old, who for a while passed through a period of serious
social exclusion and a lot of poverty. In addition to this, we cannot
forget that we are neighbors of Colombia. There is an effect that is
easily observable from the moment that self-defense forces [the
right-wing paramilitary forces] of Colombia are demobilized, in which
15-20,000 people are demobilized, people who are used to warfare,
assassinations, kidnappings, drug trafficking. All of these people are
demobilized and many of them were left without work. That is, Colombia
demobilized them, but it does not have a structure in place to put
these people to work. So many of them moved to Venezuela. The
statistics speak for themselves in this regard. You can see that from
the moment the paramilitary are demobilized, how the influx of
Colombians increases into Venezuela, and how crime starts to increase.
It not only increases, but crime is also transformed. New modalities of
crime begin to take place. For example, here you always had robberies
and kidnappings. These types of crime always took place here. However,
assassins [sicarios] were unknown here in Venezuela. Now we see cases
where they kill someone with 20 shots. Also, the form in which
kidnappings are carried out now are modalities that are copied and
brought from Colombia to Venezuela. So why don’t we control the influx?
Well, the border between Colombia and Venezuela immense and very
permeable, with jungle, rivers, canyons – it is very easy to get into
Venezuela from Colombia. If we add to this the accumulated poverty,
which president Chávez fought with great effort, and managed to lower
the poverty rate, all of these kids, who before the revolution did not
go to school, who did not have access to the universities – it was very
difficult here to get into the university, it was a very exclusionary
educational system – all of this put together with the transfer of
crime from Colombia to Venezuela, brought about the situation that we
are currently going through. A third important element is that there
was no well-structured policy to direct the country towards a state of
peace; this did not exist, a policy of citizen security. Also, the
police forces of Venezuela were very corrupt.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">For
example, in addition to being minister, I am also director of the
national intelligence service. This service has been completely
transformed. Previously it was called DISIP [National Directorate of
Intelligence and Prevention Services], now it is called SEBIN [National
Bolivarian Intelligence Service]. But the DISIP was a kind of political
police that had a tremendous scope of action and could act outside of
the law and no one said anything. This DISIP had a long history of
disappearances, torture, dismembering the bodies of leftist leaders –
it was an incredibly brutal police force. Fro example, Luis Posada
Carriles rose to be director of intelligence of the DISIP and from this
directorship he managed to commit a wide variety of human rights
violations in Venezuela. This was a police force in which the training
of the officer did not count, but rather their commitment to the
government of the time. I even met commissars, the maximum level in the
hierarchy, who were illiterate, but they were specialists in killing
people. This has been completely transformed now. Now this intelligence
service is a technical service, using a lot of technology, with a lot
of capability, completely professionalized. There was another security
force that used to exist, which was the metropolitan police [of
Caracas], which had multiple accusations against it for human rights
violations, excessive use of force, and many other things. We had to
completely dissolve this force. And so we created the National
Bolivarian Police under a new schema.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">With
regard to citizen security we created a new “great mission”, thanks to
President Chávez. What did he do? Knowing the problems of the public
administration, he knew that many times it is quite difficult to tackle
reality, which is why he created a new type of institution, the
“mission.” The first mission that he launched was Mission Robinson.
This mission, against illiteracy, was not within any ministry. So he
began creating new missions in order to address each problem. Once the
structure of the ministries had been changed, the missions were
transferred into the corresponding ministries.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">For
the problem of insecurity, the mission “For All Life” [“A toda vida”]
was created. This mission has six principal dimensions.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
If we return to the beginning, when we brought up the difference
between the perception and the reality of crime and corruption, and a
large part of the explanation was of course the media, and while this
wasn’t on the agenda of questions initially, it raises a really
important one, which is why did you put up with it? Why has the media
policy allowed the behavior they exhibited for so long?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I believe, even though it might appear to be a weakness, I think it was
one of the great strengths of President Chávez, to have always
respected the constitution and the laws. The revolutionary government
passed through several distinct phases, some of which were marked by
great weaknesses and others by strength, and so the government’s
decisions have been shaped by the conjuncture, the circumstances of
governability. Decisions have been made at different times to create
new mass media, for example – not government media, but media with
balanced views. In another opportunity the license of a TV station was
not renewed, of RCTV, one of the most radical opposition channels,
which allowed for the creation of another type of TV channel. The other
TV radical opposition channel, Globovision, is currently going through
a change because it has been bought by new owners, who are respectful
of the law. So the policies have always been within the framework of
the law. Nonetheless, they accuse of all kinds of things, of violating
human rights, of freedom of speech.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
Do you worry that their effectiveness is having a very substantial cost
for you, so that even though it is impressive, and it is very positive
that you respect the law, that you respect the prior norms, still, the
damage that they are doing is so great.</span></em><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
Before I respond to that, I need to emphasize the nature and origins of
the revolution. One of the differences to other revolutions in the
world is that it did not come to be through war and armed uprising.
Also, it did not use violence as a catalyst, no did we exacerbate class
struggle. The fact that the revolution came about via elections meant
that we had to respect elections and laws, even while we gradually
transformed these from a representative democracy to a participatory
democracy. Regarding the topic of perceptions, we believe that now,
compared to our initial situation, we are in a much better situation
now. We have been taking polls in the past three or four months and we
can tell that the perception of crime as a problem has dropped. We have
also met with all of the owners of the private mass media, and we have
addressed the topic of insecurity as an issue for all Venezuelans,
regardless of their political affiliation. In this same sense we have
also involve the Catholic Church, the Protestants, the Muslims, Jews,
in order to deal with the problem of insecurity as a problem of all
Venezuelans. I think that this, all of the measures we have been
taking, in the area of prevention, we are improving the perception of
insecurity. All of these measures that we are taking, in the area of
prevention and in punishment. If we see that the next strategic actions
that we will be taking, in one year, we will have a very high
perception of security.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">We
are also developing a new model of policing, of contact with the
people, of community policing. We are also in the process of installing
video surveillance in sixteen cities of the country that can be used
for many things. And we are also acquiring advanced technology for
crime investigations. What is important is that people join in this
effort in the struggle against crime.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
How would you respond if someone tells you, well, in the United States,
they use surveillance, they talk about police interaction with the
community, use new technologies, but what they don’t have is a national
police force – well, except for the FBI, but it’s not like what you are
creating here. How would you respond to someone who says that the steps
that you describe could also become part of a more repressive
apparatus, laying the groundwork for more police surveillance, more
police control – presumably all things that you do not want – but a
critic could say, it looks like that. Why should people believe that
what you are talking about is different?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
This is why it is important to know the whole program [a toda vida],
because what I have mentioned falls in the area of prevention, and not
repression. It is important not to confuse the two. I am not familiar
with the system in the United States because they haven’t let me enter
the country. I am prohibited from entering. They have denied me the
visa twice and I never wanted to apply again. The issue, though, goes
beyond the technological aspects, which is just a particular tool. But
the mission goes beyond that, to include the struggle against poverty,
the expansion of sports, expansion of cultural activities, that all
children have access to a safe school, that the nutritional system
functions, because crime is a social problem. In other words, the issue
of technology is simply another instrument that is part of a larger
security policy. The national police that we are developing is a police
that has the characteristic of a community police, which is close to
the people. I don’t know if it’s like that in the U.S., where the
police goes from home to home and gets to know everyone and develops an
empathy with them. Security is a holistic concept, not just one of
repression. Also, this is how we present it. I, as interior minister,
go into the communities and talk to community assemblies, where people
say to me, look, even if we put a cop in every street corner, this
won’t work towards a solution of the problem. The problem is that the
people need to develop a consciousness about security and that the
organized communities take over some responsibility for security.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
I want to ask you a question about something that was very disturbing
to us. It’s not so much crime in the sense of violent crime, but rather
corruption. The story we heard is that in the Land Institute people
receive a document when they get land, and this document is supposed to
be free. But we were told that often, people who provide the document
often ask for a bribe from the people who are supposed to receive the
document. Of course, this does not happen always, but we are told that
there are 30,000 of those letters that have not been given out. What is
troubling about this is what you have said about consciousness. It is
hard to understand how someone whose job is to literally to help
people, would be taking advantage of their position in such a way. That
is, what their mindset is and how it could exist among employees after
so many years of political activism and what could be done about it.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
The topic of corruption, which actually is something I was still going
to address, is one of the most complex and degrading topics that we
currently confront. In fact, the call of president Maduro against
corruption was quite dramatic. This problem of corruption neither
started with the revolution, nor did it increase during the revolution.
Rather, it began when the republic began. I believe, that we should see
corruption as part of en effort to dominate sectors of the public
administration. I am 49 years old, and for as long as I can remember,
corruption has always been a major issue. There was a saying in
Venezuela, “Don’t give to me, but place me where there is.” Whenever
someone wanted to get their ID card or a passport or driver’s license,
one would ask “How much do you have to pay for this?” In all public
institutions there were parallel institutions. The public institutions
did not work. There always was someone who you would hire, to take care
of the procedures. This created a culture. If we add to this the
culture of capitalism, consumerism… three things that we were taught in
Venezuela, that everything should quick, easy, and without effort. This
is something that people have imbedded in their heads. These are values
of over 100 years and it is very difficult to overcome this in just 14
years. Now, what have we done? We have used, for example, technology in
order to reduce corruption. Previously, in order to acquire an ID card,
you had to stand in line from 3am, for the entire day, and at the end
you would still not get the card. Or someone would come and say, “Give
me X and I’ll get it for you.” This problem we managed to resolve with
much hard effort and today Venezuelans are able to acquire their
citizen ID card very quickly, with the help of new technology, and
without and intermediaries. Any Venezuelan who now tells me, “I paid so
and so much for the ID card,” I tell them that they are stupid. Because
it is very easy to acquire the ID card now. It is very easy to get it
now. Also, for the passports today, you don’t need to go to the office,
but enter the website, apply for it, and get an appointment, and then
go to the office to pick it up. And this is how we have been taking
action in all of the institutions, so that the activities of the
citizenry are cleared of corruption. We have also done work in raising
consciousness about this topic in a variety of ways, with communities,
with people, with mass media. And even thought the right wing denies
it, we have also repressed corruption with the use of force.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">In
the Fourth Republic [before Chávez] a politician was never touched for
being involved in corruption. The only case that was taken to court,
and became famous, had to do with RECADI (Differentiated Currency
Exchange Regime), which brought us to the extreme situation of zero
dollars in foreign currency reserves. Some experts who have studied
this say that this was the greatest fraud in the history of the world,
and for this there was only one person who was convicted, and he
happened to be Chinese. He became famous for being the “RICADI
Chinaman.”</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">If
you review the record of the last 14 years, here we have prisoners [for
corruption] who are former governors, National Assembly deputies,
ministers, generals – previously generals were untouchable – and
generals who appeared to be revolutionaries, in prison for corruption,
more than ten of them. This includes General Baduel, who was a great
friend of Chávez, a founder of the movement. He caught wind of the
corruption investigation and then he began to take positions in
opposition to the government. Because, here a trend was started, which
said that all those who are accused of corruption are opposition
politicians. And General Baduel is someone who used to be defense
minister.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">The
system of providing the ID cards, the SAIME, there are no less than 37
in prison, from regional directors on down. A special unit has been
created to fight corruption, the Bolivarian Intelligence Service
(SEBIN).</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
I understand the repression and arrests as a means, and I understand
that fighting poverty is a means, and I understand the idea of trying
to prevent it with technological innovations and the like. But I am
also wondering about the mindset. I get that it arises from a long
history, but still, how do you create socialism if the mindset of a
large part of the population is still to look for ways to cheat and
extort from other people? When we asked some other people this, I asked
them, “Does Julio Chávez cheat or steal? Is he corrupt?” Of course, the
answer was no. And I asked the same thing about the Supreme Court Judge
Fernando Vegas and of course the answer was also no. And so I asked
“Why?” And the answer was that these people went through a long
revolutionary process. So these people’s values, ethics, norms, were
formed in a long process and they were committed and were no
corruptible. The thing that is troubling me, is how after the election
of Chávez, when you are now in that non-violent context, how do you
instill that kind of devotion and that kind of incorruptibility. The
process of struggling against capitalism somehow created people who
were incorruptible, but the broader population did not go through that
process and still has those old values and inclinations. Have you
thought about how to change that mindset and values? And why hasn’t
that happened?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I don’t have such a fatalistic vision of the situation. I do think that
there have been some important changes. But this is a problem for which
we need patience. It’s not something that we are going to resolve
quickly. Not a contemplative patience, but an active patience. We need
to confront this from a variety of angles. For example, from the angle
of education, to get it out of people’s heads that every thing ought to
be easy, fast, and without effort. This is something that we are
working on a lot in community workshops, with all of the communal
councils. At the same time, though, we continue to battle the private
mass media. It’s not because they are against the government, but that
they are deeply imbedded in capitalism, supporting particular values.
All that they teach in the media, and the children that see this, such
as, “You want to lose weight? Take a little pill.” It’s quick, easy,
and without effort. But we know that things are not that easy. You need
to go on a diet, you need to do exercise, etc. “Do you want to learn
English? Quickly? In this academy you can learn it in three weeks.”
That’s a lie. But that’s how they learn that life is supposed to be
like this. This is a struggle for a new social ethic, which cannot be
constructed in one year or even in five, but it requires a constant
effort, the formation of new leaders, a cadre school, strengthening the
revolutionary universities. This last is one of the great achievements
of President Chávez, to have managed to open the universities to
everyone. This is not just a matter of political formation, but also
one of ethics. It is a long struggle, but the element of repression
also enters. It is a big challenge. I like challenges.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
What I think is really incredible is what Venezuela is trying to do is
rather unique. There is no comparison between what Venezuela is doing
and what Cuba did, for example, much less other revolutions. One thing
that’s frustrating in some sense, is that it seems to me that Venezuela
is a school for the world in the difficulties and tasks that are needed
to build a better society without violence, without civil war. It often
seems, though, that Venezuela doesn’t see it as a priority to
communicate with other leftists around the world to communicate what
Venezuela is trying to do. The understanding that leftists have around
the world is really poor. And I don’t think you can only blame them for
that. It seems that the Venezuela process hasn’t seen it as a priority
to simultaneously explain what is going on. What do you think?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I am in complete agreement. It’s one of the great weaknesses of our
process. Always from the different positions I have had, I have always
desperate tried to spread the word, to create alliances with the left,
in order to have opinion generators all around the world. I still think
that it’s a need for us. Also because Venezuela has achieved quite a
bit in 14 years. For example, what we have done on the issue of
illiteracy. This is something that representative democracy in
Venezuela could not do in 50 years. Comandante Chávez, with the help of
Cuba, achieved in two years.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
I have a question about that. I know a number of literacy teachers in
the United States, and in the U.S. there is a lot of illiteracy. It’s
defined as when you are unable to read sufficiently for carrying out
daily life tasks. Their response to Venezuela’s announcement that
Venezuela had achieved full literacy was that it was impossible, that
it could not possibly have been done so quickly. I have two questions.
One, in your experience, does it really mean that all Venezuela can
pick up a newspaper and read it and understand it. And second, how do
you think it could be communicated with the world, so that it would be
convincing and not considered propaganda?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I understand that you might not believe it. I realize that the
methodology that is used in other countries is very slow. Here we did
it very quickly because we used a mission that dedicated itself just to
this task. One of the main pillars was the armed forces. They are
deployed in the entire country. This allowed us to take up the issue in
all corners of the country. One of the main pillars of this mission was
to train the teachers within the armed forces, and with this deployment
to implement the program. The method, “Yo si puedo” [Yes I can] is
truly extraordinary. There are many stories of people, including up to
80 years of age, who not only learned to read and write, but they also
continued their education up to sixth grade. I believe that Chávez’s
leadership was one of the fundamental things for this. Because the work
that he dedicated to this, the spiritual force, and the motivation that
this provided, caused people to participate. I think living in
illiteracy is like living in darkness. When you want to catch a bus,
you have to pay attention to the bus’s color, and when you follow the
news you are limited to the television. For any task, you need to ask
someone to write something for you. So, for anyone who had the
opportunity to get out of this, they took it on gladly. We even have
people who started in Mission Robinson 1 and who have no graduated from
the University. This is exactly the path, to struggle against
exclusion, struggle against poverty.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Returning
to the topic of crime, there is an issue that I would like to propose
to the president, which we are developing in a team, which is to return
to a school of two shifts and that education in schools be much more
holistic, so that each child that attends school would have food,
education, health, culture, and sports. Perhaps because I come from the
military academy, but the academy had classes in the morning, sports in
the afternoon, and then more classes and cultural activities. We had
constant activities. If a child enters school in the morning, they have
classes until 1pm, and in the afternoon do some sports or cultural or
other activities, returning to their home around 5pm or 6pm in the
evening, they would have very little time for dangerous leisure. But
what happens nowadays? The great majority of kids pass the afternoons
on their own. Parents are working and the kids return around 1pm and
they pass their time either in front of the TV or go out on the streets
and get involved in delinquency. The kids are being exposed to
disturbing factors.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
Continuing the crime issue, but a different part of it, the Venezuelan
prison system, like so many others all over the world, doesn’t actually
serve as a deterrent to crime and is often actually a school for crime.
This is very true of the United States. The prisons are full of drugs,
often governed by gangs, you have to defend yourself with violent
techniques. Is there a plan in Venezuela for changing the prisons as
dramatically as has been done in other areas of society?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
First of all, you have to understand that there never has been a
penitentiary system in Venezuela. The prisons were depositories of
human beings, where people who are being processed and those who were
already sentenced were in the same prison. Also, in the same prison you
would have murderers with someone who hit someone with their car. This
was the situation until recently. As I mentioned earlier, the mission
“A Toda Vida” has six dimensions or lines of action and number four
says, “modernization of the penal system.” This is currently being
applied. Within this there are various strategic lines in order to
achieve this objective and I think we have advanced quite a bit with
this. There are something like 36 prisons in Venezuela, 14 of which are
under the direct control of the state and the rest we are currently
working on. The judicial system, which is also a part of this mission,
has many problems with regard to the delay of trials, which is also
something we are working on resolving. It would be very interesting for
you to interview Minister Iris Varela, who is in charge of the prison
system. We have given the problem such a high level of importance that
a new ministry was created to take of this issue. Right now we are
constructing, I believe, over 14 new prisons, so that we can place
prisoners according to the crime and according to the punishment that
they committed.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <em><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
I still want to ask you one more prison question. What would you think
of a program where those who were sentenced to prison could choose to
go either to a typical but reformed prison of the old sort or could
choose to go to a different prison, of a new sort, where they would
live in something like personal rooms, could take courses in order to
reenter society and where to a large extent would self-manage their own
environment, still isolated from the outside community, completely
drug-free and violations would mean being returned to a more typical
prison.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
This kind of thing is actually currently being done. The judicial
reform would allow punishments that don’t involve going to typical
prisons. Also, the de-concentration of the prison system, such as what
you can see in the socialist city of Caribia. For example, for those
who commit minor crimes people are punished with community service,
along with training workshops and behavioral follow-up, which would
avoid what has been happening, which is that for any crime, no matter
how small, they would be taken to a prison. In the existing prisons we
are beginning to activate productive units and training centers. For
example, work for adolescents is being focused on a lot because these
are kids that could return to society. So in those special prisons
there are psychologists and psychiatrists, working on helping them
return into the larger society.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Beyond
that, an extraordinary experience has been the process of disarmament,
which we also haven’t told that well. We are seeing boys who are
involved in crime, who approach the police authorities and turn in
their weapons, saying, here I am, I would like to work. Just a little
while ago I had an experience in the state of Vargas, where a policeman
and seven boys turned over their weapons. We examined the weapons, so a
to make sure none of them had been used in a crime, in murders or in
drug-trafficking, When we completed the revision, we took the weapons.
And they [the boys] and now participating in tourism courses. We
donated a boat, with motors, and they organized a cooperative, where
they use the boat to transport tourists from one beach to another.
These are seven boys where we believe is a proper follow-up they will
be involved in productive work and their weapons have been taken out of
circulation. We have already destroyed over 16,000 weapons, which we
are turning into rebar for home construction projects. This is another
experience that shows how we are advancing on many fronts.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<hr>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="left">From:</th>
<td>Z Net - The Spirit Of Resistance Lives</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="left">URL:</th>
<td><a target="znet"
href="http://www.zcommunications.org/interview-with-interior-and-justice-minister-miguel-rodriguez-torres-part-one-by-miguel-rodriguez-torres">http://www.zcommunications.org/interview-with-interior-and-justice-minister-miguel-rodriguez-torres-part-one-by-miguel-rodriguez-torres</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div id="wrapper">
<div id="bigLeft"><br>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <b><u><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Part
II</span></u></b><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <b><i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Michael
Albert</span></i></b><i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">:
Even while we have been there, there was, in the news – and you were on
the TV a lot – that there was an assassination plot against President
Maduro. Not the first. From where do you think this particular plot
originated and what do you think is the general motivation of such
plots?</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Miguel
Rodriguez Torres</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">:
As director of the intelligence service, I have publicly spoken about
assassination attempts in three opportunities. The intention always was
not only to try to kill the president, but to put an end to the
revolutionary process. In the case of President Chávez, there was also
the effort to have one of his bodyguards kill him, so that not only
would he be killed, but to also put an end to his leadership, with this
image of the president being killed by his own bodyguard.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">The
first assassination plot that I investigated was directed from Caracas.
They wanted to kill him with a sniper. This sniper was in prison in the
state of Guarico. He had asked for $5 million to kill the president. On
the one hand, he asked for the money, on the other hand, he himself
communicated to me that he did not want to do it. He was one of
Venezuela’s most famous robbers and he was an expert with a particular
type of sniper rifle. This is someone who has committed serious crimes
in Venezuela. For example, he robbed armored cash transports –
something from the movies. He was captured in Mexico and the DISIP
transported him to Venezuela 20 years ago. During this time he made
friends in the DISIP. So, via the old friends he had made in the DISIP,
he passed the information on to me about how he would assassinate the
president. I called him to find out the details and he told me that his
strategy was to escape from prison, kill the president, and then return
to the prison, so that he would have an alibi. Some time later then,
his plan was to leave the prison for good and to leave the country. He
proved all of this to me. I asked him, “How are you going to manage to
leave the prison?” and he responded, “That’s already organized.” I even
met him outside of prison, while he still was a prisoner, in a town
Aragua state, with two girlfriends. He already could come and go as he
pleased. All of this I told President Chávez. The mastermind of the
whole plan was a great friend of Chávez’s. I prefer not to say who it
was, in memory of the friendship that Chávez had with him. This plan
fell apart because the prisoner’s trial was going to be in the state of
Bolivar, in the south of Venezuela, so they transported him there and
left him there. In the end, we could not arrest anyone for this plan
because all of it remained on the level of intelligence work.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">The
second occasion in which there was an assassination attempt was May
2004, when they brought 150 paramilitary forces from Colombia. They
gave them Venezuelan military uniforms and came with the intention of
killing President Chávez. I think this was one of my best intelligence
operations. If we had not been able to neutralize this plan, I think
Venezuela today would be a different country. We managed to capture 150
Colombians and more or less 15 members of the national armed forces.
This was the famous “Daktari” case. Another participant was Roberto
Alonso, of Miami, and Orlando Urdaneta, also in Miami. Alonso has
always been an ally of Luis Posada Carriles. Another participant was
the former mayor of Caracas [Alfredo Peña], who, when the plan was
uncovered, left the country, to Uruguay, I think. I have information
that he is very ill now. Part of this plan was to steal two F-16
fighter jets; two officers of the Venezuelan military were going to do
that, in order to bomb Chávez’s talk show, “Alo Presidente.” And during
this bombing the 150 paramilitaries from Colombia were going to attack
strategic points in Caracas. The boss of the Colombians was commander
Lucas, who was a very trusted friend of Salvatore Mancuso, who was the
second-in-command of the AUC (Auto-Defense Forces of Colombia).
Commander Lucas was well known for how blood-thirsty he was. He even
told me that he was going to cut off President Chávez’s head and smoke
a cigar. This guy was deranged. This was the plan to kill Commandante
Chávez.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Now,
this third plan, which is against President Maduro, we found out
through information that came to us from Miami. One of the first
meetings for this plan had the participation of people who are tied to
Luis Posada Carriles, who then traveled to Colombia. There they
recruited Venezuelan agents. We found out everything that they were
planning to do. I can’t tell you the method we used. We then determined
that they traveled to Costa Rica and discovered that ten individuals,
assassins, who were going to travel from Colombia to Venezuela, with
the intention of killing President Maduro in one of his community
meetings. The president exposes himself quite a lot. We knew of the
movements of two of these assassins, who we followed with the use of
telephone technology. When they traveled to Caracas and spent one night
near the city, we managed to arrest them, two Colombian assassins
[sicarios]. We got all of their data, their passports, boarding passes.
The surprise factor helped us a lot. Once we obtained this information,
I personally traveled to Bogotá, where I met with the Colombian
director of intelligence and he provided us with all of the information
about this particular group of assassins. They are directed by a
certain individual with the alias “David,” who is the boss of a cartel
of assassins. The two that we arrested admitted that they were in
Venezuela to assassinate someone. Also, there is a witness, who said
that a Venezuelan provided them with uniforms, rifles, etc. we still
haven’t managed to capture this individual, though. All of the
information that we got from different sources coincides. We were told
that there were ten assassins and we found ten uniforms. When we went
to Colombia to get information about the group of assassins, we found
out that they are a group of ten. This is how intelligence work works,
putting together various pieces of evidence. This is where we are at
right now in this investigation.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
So this means that eight assassins are still lose in Venezuela? Or do
you think they went back to Colombia?</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
We believe they have not come to Venezuela yet. The first two were the
first to come here. Nevertheless, we are alert to their possible
presence.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
In the case of Cuba over the years, there have been a great many of
such plots, as well as outright terror tactics, coming from the U.S.
There is a possible motivation for such policies, even if they don’t
succeed in assassinating the president. They can force or abet or
justify a kind of centralization of the state and a siege mentality
that interferes with efforts to achieve greater democracy and
self-management, instead generating repressiveness. Indeed, the effect
of 9/11 in the U.S. and the emergence of homeland security, for
example. So the question becomes, do you think you can protect
President Maduro and the country and yet avoid that kind of siege
mentality and centralization?</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I believe that in Venezuela we have had to learn to live with a right
wing that includes terrorist elements. And, despite the attacks of this
right wing, we have never generalized repression. Instead, we have
generalized action. In addition to this, our intelligence service has
been able to reach very important level of operation capacity, so that
it can focus on just that one objective. This is why I think we did not
fall into a massive wave of repression. Also, we have a sufficient
capacity to protect the life of the president. These are events we have
had to live through because of the Venezuelan right wing [holds up
posters with images of different terrorist attacks against the
government].</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Look,
this was in the year 2003, the group of military officers who occupied
Plaza Altamira [in Caracas], established a constant focus of
disturbances in an important plaza of Caracas. They placed bombs at the
Spanish and at the Colombian consulates. The perpetrators were
processed and some of them escaped to Miami. They placed these bombs
and destroyed the offices of the consulates.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Here’s
another one, where they placed a bomb in a demonstration for the
president. They placed the bomb in a garbage can on the route of the
march. At that time I was already director of the intelligence service.
We knew that they had placed an explosive somewhere along the route of
the march. We first wanted to cancel the march, but then we decided to
change the route of the march. We changed it, but nonetheless, one
citizen was killed in the explosion.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">In
another incident, in the same plaza where they had placed the bombs
[Altamira], they got this Portuguese mister, who first fired shots into
the air and then started shooting people in the plaza. There were
deaths and many injuries.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Again,
in the same plaza, the right-wing politicians who were proselytizing
with active duty officers, believed that these three soldiers were
informers of the intelligence service and so they killed them. They
killed the three and the girlfriend of one of them. This was
investigated and the perpetrators were imprisoned. And some of the
masterminds of the crime, one of them was Capitan Colina, now lives in
Miami, speaking badly about Venezuela every day and has political
asylum.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
All of this is exactly the kind of behavior, I think, which could be
explained as trying to cause you, the government, to move toward far
more centralized and repressive behavior.</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
This is not something that they managed to do. We have defeated them
with intelligence and not with violence. And the mobilization of the
public has been a fundamental factor, as well as the civil-military
unity, and without a doubt intelligence work.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
There is a strange confluence of two themes emerging here. On the one
the population has this long history of corruption and crime and it is
very hard to overcome. On the other side, you, Chávez, and various
other people, who exercising power from the government, you tell us,
you aren’t corrupted and don’t become corrupted and don’t seek more
power and don’t seek to centralize, even though you have a perfect
excuse to do so, because of the terrorism of the right. There is a
gigantic gap there, between your consciousness and what most people
expect to find in such a government, and what is widespread in
Venezuela as well. I know something like this is very hard to explain,
but can you?</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
The situation in Venezuela is not easy to explain. The revolution has
passed through many periods of strength and of weakness. When these
things were happening we were just coming out of an oil industry
shutdown. Venezuela went from 3 million barrels per day in exports, to
3,000, there was no gasoline, there were shortages of food, a type of
collapse and many street mobilizations in early 2003. There was a great
confrontation between two opposing models. The only way were able to
overcome this confrontation was through more intelligence than
violence. There was a temptation to use violence. There was a meeting
in 2003, by this group of military officers and politicians, who had
taken over this plaza, Plaza Altamira, and they set up a stage where
active duty officers called for a military rebellion. We were
confronted with the possibility that entire barracks would join this
call. The defense minister at the time, in a meeting with President
Chávez, proposed to take over the plaza by force, using tanks. The
military sector was inclined to such an action. As director of the
intelligence service, I was also a military officer, and I evaluated in
what condition of governability the government was. The situation was
one of great fragility, which also led to a recall referendum in 2004.
I was one of the people at the time to recommend to the president that
we should use a strategy of wearing them out and not through a
confrontation. We succeeded with this. I think this even backfired for
them. Even in the U.S. they condemned military officers involved in
political activism. This allowed us to wear them out and defeat them.
Now they are dispersed all over the place.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">The
president was able to re-take the situation and, in a daring action, we
heading towards the referendum. I was one of the individuals who liked
the idea of a recall referendum. I was one of the few in the government
who liked it. I always believed firmly in the president. The triumph of
winning the recall referendum gave Chávez great strength and
legitimacy, nationally and internationally, and allowed him to pursue
changes with even greater vigor. In any other government, in the U.S.
or in Venezuela, this plaza occupation would have ended with repression
because they would not have cared about killing these people. We always
tried to protect lives.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
Do you think the same kind of mentality and priorities help explain the
pace of nationalizations? That is, it isn’t done very abruptly,
rapidly, at once. It’s a slow, long process, waiting for moments when
it can be done, avoiding confrontations.</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
Yes, because this is a democratic revolution. We cannot say, “Ok, we
won the election and will make a revolution and will execute all those
who do not obey.” The nationalizations are conducted in a strategic
manner, depending on the situation, based on the support that they
provide to the process. I think the most important one was of the
[state oil company] PDVSA, of assuming true control over it, cost us a
lot of blood, sweat, and tears.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
Now I have a few questions about your background? First, how did you
become politicized?</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I entered the military academy in the year 1984, and in 1985 I was
transferred to a paratrooper battalion. Once there, I began making
contact with members of the MBR [Bolivarian Revolutionary Movement,
Chávez’s clandestine military group]. This group was an embryo for the
formation of the MBR – in fact one of the individuals that I worked
with for many years was one of the founders of the MBR, Commander
Urdaneta Hernandez. He was my boss for several years. This is how I was
influenced. Also, my older brother had always been a part of the left
and entered the university in Maracay. I always discussed with him.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">I
was then transferred to the Presidential Guard. I thus began to
distance myself a little from my companions in the MBR, but my
experience in the presidential palace allowed me to open my eyes more
to what was going on in Venezuela. The famous RECADI case, how the
powerful managed the women of the president, the business deals they
conducted, and how they repressed the population. The social explosion
of 1989 I experienced from there; how they wantonly killed people
[during the Caracazo of February 1989]. I saw large holes in the
ground, in the cemetery, full of dead bodies, which were the result of
the repression. This affected me greatly. Although I remained silent, I
discussed this with my buddies. At night there was a curfew and we took
advantage of that to discuss at night what was going on. We didn’t only
discuss it, but repudiated it. This is how we generated consciousness.
Also, when masses of people went out to engage in looting, what we did
was to organize them, without repressing, because we understood the
reality of the people and it hurt us, how we were ordered us to kill
them. Silently, we did not follow those orders.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">From
there, I returned to the paratrooper battalion and began to reestablish
closer contacts to the conspiracy, until we got to February 4 [of
1992]. Until that time I was merely a soldier, with a conscience. I had
been trained in the Special Forces. Later [after Feb. 4], I was
imprisoned and I dedicated myself to studying, intensively, for the two
years that I was in jail. History, politics, economics. We had
discussion groups. From there we also started to organize
civil-military Bolivarian committees. This was one of the most intense
forms of work I did while imprisoned. We began to organize Bolivarian
committees in all of the cities, which later turned into the Bolivarian
Circles. This is where I developed more political consciousness.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">We
had contacts with people from the extreme left to people of the extreme
right. We were also contacted by someone who was in prison in the U.S.,
from the Ibero-American solidarity committee, which was a part of the
extreme right, who was trying to promote coup d’états in all of Latin
America. And these people met with us a few times. They were, for
example, supporting the “Carapintadas”, a group that was led by a
right-wing military colonel of Argentina. They supported various
projects of the extreme right in Latin America. Of course, when they
realized that we did not support their ideas, they withdrew. Their top
representative in Venezuela is Peña Esclusa, who three years ago we
imprisoned for possessing explosives. He was the contact person for
Chávez Abarca – a Central American, who we imprisoned here. He is one
of the people who planted bomb in Cuba and in other places. We captured
him while trying to enter Venezuela and sent him to Cuba. He’s one of
Luis Posada Carriles’s men.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">I
got out of prison and I was stubborn and I did not want to ask for a
discharge. I did not ask for it because I wanted to annoy the military,
more than that I wanted to remain in the military. And so, from 1994 to
1998 I passed through all of Venezuela, all of the border regions. They
invented border posts and placed me there. I was in places where I lost
25 kilograms of weight, far in the south of Venezuela. Even through I
was completely isolated, I had my books and my contacts and made
contact with local communities. Also, I had clandestine meetings with
Hugo Chávez.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">In
1997, I met with Chávez in the city of Coro. He had sent me a message,
asking to meet with me. At the time I was still an active duty officer.
I couldn’t command or speak to troops, though because they had me
segregated. We met in the middle of Los Medanos, which is a dune
desert. Commandante Chávez was wearing a wig and a hat. To find him, I
had circled 200 hundred times, also because I was being followed by the
DISIP [intelligence service] and we met below a plant. Chávez said to
me, “Miguel, ask for a discharge and come with me. We will create a
great movement in the streets.” My response was, “My Commandante,
honestly, I believe that you will be president of the Venezuelan
republic.” At that time he hadn’t launched his presidential campaign
yet. He said to me, that this still has not been decided, whether to
run. I responded, “You will decide to run and you will win.” I also
said, “With this power of conviction that you have, it is impossible
for you to lose the election. And when you win the election, you will
need active duty officers who support you from within the armed forces.
I will leave the military when you decide not to run for president.”</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">He
ran, won, and I was in the armed forces. That same night when he won,
he called for me. I presented myself to him in Caracas. At the time I
was in Tumeremo, in the far south of Venezuela, Bolivar state. I then
asked him, “Do you remember that I said you would win? Now we have to
start the work within the armed forces because if we don’t have their
support, our process is not going to last more than a year.” That’s why
I stayed in the armed forces.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Before
the 1998 elections I was imprisoned eight times. They followed me,
isolated me, imprisoned me for one week or three days. That’s how I
came into the government with Chávez. All these years, studying,
learning about politics. In addition, our military education also
includes a lot of political science and philosophy. My family
background is in the working to middle class. After that I dedicated
myself to studying a lot. I have post-graduate degrees in finance,
conflict negotiation, master’s in logistical management, administrative
science, as well as the normal military education.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
In your mind, first, what is the goal for socialism of the 21<sup>st</sup>
century and, second, do you think that many Venezuelans could express
Venezuela’s goals the way you would? And if they can’t, why do you
think they can’t?</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
I believe that first of all we have a great deficit in defining what is
socialism of the 21<sup>st</sup> century. Because, this Bolivarian
Socialism – a term that I prefer – needs to be a socialism that is
adequate to our reality. It must be a socialism that is not an exact
copy of other socialist experiences in the world. But it must be
centered in various key issues. First, in the issue of social justice,
which has to do with a new model for the distribution of wealth. This
is one of the richest countries in the world, in my opinion, and it
cannot justify the existence of poverty in any way. We can construct a
country with a people that are dignified and prosperous. We have to
define an economy that will is needed for this. If it is via an
state-based economy or some other system, but I think the most
important riches and resources of the country should be in the hands of
the state, which is what President Chávez did when he got control over
the oil industry. Our entire economy, our entire society turn around
what happens with the oil industry.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">But
we need to define what kind of society and economy are needed to
achieve social justice. We have advanced in this. President Maduro has
a team that is in the process of defining this. President Chávez also
left us many writings and thoughts and work that is useful for this.
Based on this we can construct a theory. Our socialism has many
differences from other experiences. For example, on the topic of
religion, compared to the Soviet Union they put an end to the Church.
They turned churches into public restrooms. Venezuela is a very
Christian country. This is a reality that we have to work with. Even
those of us who are in positions of power are Christians. Before,
Soviet socialism promoted immanence, values that are internal to the
human, that they are good because of their human nature. Christians,
though, believe in transcendence. This difference defines two distinct
models for life. This obliges us to think about our socialism according
to our reality.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">So,
first, our country needs to be one where there is no poverty, where the
concept of the family is strengthened, and where the productive model
is defined. We need to covert the whole oil potential that we have,
downstream, into productive industries that generate work. Our wealth
should also be directed towards agriculture, for the production of
food. When we manage to become self-sufficient with regard to food and
manage to produce downstream goods from the oil industry, for our
consumption, then the revolution will be undefeatable. I would focus on
ten main food products that are particularly needed, for example.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">We
need to understand that Venezuela is not an isolated island. The forces
of capitalism are still surrounding us. This reality obliges us to pay
attention this reality. It is very complicated to have a socialist
production models and then to commercialize their products within a
capitalist framework. There is the Chinese example, which is one
possibility. It is a mixed model. And then there are other experiences.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">What
is your opinion on this?</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MA:
I do spend a lot of time working on economic vision: what is the
alternative to capitalism and what is the alternative to what has been
called socialism. The thing that we favor can be called either
participatory economics or participatory socialism.</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">MRT:
This is exactly an issue that I have been studying for the past few
months, about an economic alternative to capitalism. Also, for the past
three years I have been developing a model for humanist participatory
management, looking at the question of how you can be an effective
manager, with a capitalist philosophy and formation, while trying to
build socialism.</span><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 150%;"> <i><span
style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif";">Transcribed
and translated by Gregory Wilpert</span></i><span
style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 150%;"> </span></p>
</div>
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<hr>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="left">From:</th>
<td>Z Net - The Spirit Of Resistance Lives</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="left">URL:</th>
<td><a target="znet"
href="http://www.zcommunications.org/interview-with-interior-and-justice-minister-miguel-rodriguez-torres-part-two-by-miguel-rodriguez-torres">http://www.zcommunications.org/interview-with-interior-and-justice-minister-miguel-rodriguez-torres-part-two-by-miguel-rodriguez-torres</a></td>
</tr>
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