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<h2><font size=4><b>Bolivian President Evo Morales on Climate Debt,
Capitalism, Why He Wants a Tribunal for Climate Justice and Much
More</b></font></h2><font size=3>Bolivian President Evo Morales joins us
in Copenhagen to talk about the UN climate talks, capitalism, climate
debt and much more. “Policies of unlimited industrialization are what
destroys the environment,” Morales said. “And that irrational
industrialization is capitalism.” [includes rush transcript]<br>
<a href="http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/17/bolivian_president_evo_morales_on_climate" eudora="autourl">
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/17/bolivian_president_evo_morales_on_climate<br>
<br>
</a><b>Evo Morales</b>, President of Bolivia.<br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>This is Climate Countdown. <br><br>
<ul>
<b>NNIMMO BASSEY: </b>We believe in the right of people to protest or to
dissent. And we just can’tI can’t personally understand why we are kept
out of the conference. <br><br>
<b>JOSÉ BOVÉ: </b>The debate between the NGO, the poor people, and the
governments is no more possible at two days of the end of this meeting.
<br><br>
<b>JOSHUA KAHN RUSSELL: </b>When I say “climate,” you say “justice”!
Climate! <br><br>
<b>PROTESTERS: </b>Justice! <br><br>
<b>JOSHUA KAHN RUSSELL: </b>Climate! <br><br>
<b>PROTESTERS: </b>Justice! <br><br>
<b>PROTESTER: </b>The police pepper-sprayed me. I was shouting, “We are
peaceful!” And they pepper-sprayed me. <br><br>
<b>SUNITA NARAIN: </b>The US has been the major obstructionist force in
climate change from the day the crisis began. <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] The budget of the United
States is $687 billion for defense. And for climate change, to save life,
to save humanity, they only put up $10 billion. This is
shameful.<br><br>
</ul><b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>This is Climate Countdown. It’s <i>Democracy
Now!</i>, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman. We’re broadcasting from
inside the Bella Center. <br><br>
It’s just one day before the COP15 UN climate summit comes to a close.
The summit has been described as the biggest gathering on climate change
in history. And now, ten days after it started, are the talks on the
brink of collapse? <br><br>
The dispute between rich and poor countries, between the Global North and
Global South, on key issues, including greenhouse gas emissions and
climate debt, remain unresolved. World leaders from more than 110
countries have begun arriving at the summit and are delivering their
addresses to the main plenary as we speak. As for civil society, the only
thing worse than the endless lines of thousands of people trying to get
into the Bella Center are no lines, because civil society has largely
been locked out. <br><br>
Well, just before we went to air today, I interviewed Evo Morales,
Bolivia’s first indigenous president. He was re-elected in a landslide
victory earlier this month. <br><br>
On Wednesday, Evo Morales called on world leaders to hold temperature
increases over the next century to just one degree Celsius, the most
ambitious proposal so far by any head of state. Morales also called on
the United States and other wealthy nations to pay an ecological debt to
Bolivia and other developing nations. <br><br>
<ul>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>President Morales, welcome to <i>Democracy Now!</i>
<br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] Thank you very much for the
invitation. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>You spoke yesterday here at the Bella Center and said
we cannot end global warming without ending capitalism. What did you
mean? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] Capitalism is the worst enemy
of humanity. Capitalismand I’m speaking about irrational
developmentpolicies of unlimited industrialization are what destroys the
environment. And that irrational industrialization is capitalism. So as
long as we don’t review or revise those policies, it’s impossible to
attend to humanity and life. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>How would you do that? How would you end capitalism?
<br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] It’s changing economic
policies, ending luxury, consumerism. It’s ending the struggle toor this
searching for living better. Living better is to exploit human beings.
It’s plundering natural resources. It’s egoism and individualism.
Therefore, in those promises of capitalism, there is no solidarity or
complementarity. There’s no reciprocity. So that’s why we’re trying to
think about other ways of living lives and living well, not living
better. Not living better. Living better is always at someone else’s
expense. Living better is at the expense of destroying the environment.
<br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>President Morales, what are you calling herefor here
at the UN climate summit? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] Defense of the rights of
Mother Earth. The earth is our life. Nature is our home, our house.
Happily, the United Nations have declared a Mother Earth Day. If the
mother is recognized as Mother Earth, it’s something that can’t be sold,
it’s something that can’t beit can’t be violated, something sacred. This
is nature. This is planet earth. And that’s why I’ve come here, to defend
the rights of Mother Earth, to defend the rights to life, to defend
humanity and saving Mother Earth. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>What does climate debt mean, President Morales?
<br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] After the destruction of
Mother Earth, it’s important to recognize the rights of Mother Earth. And
the best way to recognize this is by paying a climate debt. Second, it’s
important to recognize the damages that have been done and attend to the
people who have been affected by climate change, people who will lose
their island homes, for example, people who will remain without water.
<br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State, said today,
“We can’t look back; we have to look forward.” <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] Looking forward means that we
have to review everything that capitalism has done. These are things that
cannot just be solved with money. We have to resolve problems of life and
humanity. And that’s the problem that planet earth faces today. And this
means ending capitalism. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>The Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, also said
today that $100 billion would be promised if a deal were arrived at, not
just by the United States, per year, but in a public-private partnership
with a number of countries around the world, but only if a deal is
arrived at. She would not say what the US would contribute to this. What
do you say about the US spending on the issue of global warming
versuswell, you talked yesterday about war. <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] The best thing would be that
all war spending be directed towards climate change, instead of spending
it on troops in Iraq, in Afghanistan or the military bases in Latin
America. This money would be better directed to attending to the damages
that were created by the United States. And, of course, this isn’t just
$100 billion; this is probably trillions and trillions of dollars. How
are we going to spend money to kill and not save lives? We have to spend
money to save lives, not to kill. These are our differences with
capitalism. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>You called the war in Afghanistan terrorist. Are you
saying President Obama is a terrorist? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] People who send their troops
to kill outside their country, that’s terror. There’s not only
civilterrorists dressed as civilians; they can also be dressed in
military uniforms. Worse still if they’re financed with the money from
the peoples, from taxes. Of course, every country has the right to defend
itself, just as every country can defend itself. But invading another
country with uniformed people, that’s state terrorism. <br>
Moreover, to establish military bases in Latin America with the objective
of political control, and where their military base is an empire, that’s
not respect for democracy. There is no peace, social peace. There is no
development for those countries nor integration in those regions. This is
what we’ve lived in South America and Latin America. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>What is your message to President Obama at these
climate talks? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] After listening to his speech
at the heads of state Summit of the Americas, we were very hopeful that
he would be an ally in addressing poverty. Now I’m not so hopeful.
Rather, we’re disappointed. If something has changed in the United
States, it’s the color of the president. <br>
So I’ve been called upon, through administrative resolutions, to close
unions, or to eliminate unions, when I’m doing exactly the opposite.
[translator: “I apologize.”] In the report that was done regarding access
to trade preferences under the ATPDEA program, it was charged that the
Bolivian government has been involved in suppressing unions, when, in
fact, quite the contrary, the government’s been very active in providing
infrastructure and support to unions through improving the centers where
unions meet, etc. <br>
Even President Bush did not make any observations about the new clauses
in the constitution of Bolivia, whereas under the new administration
there have been observations and comments made about the new constitution
that’s been drafted, in particular in relation to the management of the
gas and oil sectors. This is a clear involvement in Bolivian internal
affairs by the Obama administration. At the end of the day, it seems that
they’re asking us to change the constitution. This is something that not
even Bush did. If we just look at this, this makes Obama seemlook worse
than Bush. And the documents are there. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>I know you have to leave. My last question is: you’ve
called for a climate tribunal; what do you mean? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] Those who do damage to planet
earth and those who do damage need to be judged. Those who do not fulfill
the terms of the Kyoto Protocol should also be judged. And for those
ends, we have to organize a tribunal for climate justice in the United
Nations. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>And one degree Celsius? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] That’s our proposal. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>Do you think it could be achieved? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] Yes. Yes, otherwise it would
be a lack of commitment to humanity. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>Do you think there will be a deal that comes out of
Copenhagen? <br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] I doubt it. We’re developing
other proposals for my intervention. <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>Do you think it’s catastrophic that there’s no deal?
<br><br>
<b>PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: </b>[translated] No, it’s a waste of time. And
if the leaders of countries cannot arrive in an agreement, why don’t the
peoples then decide together? <br><br>
<b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>We will leave it there. I thank you very much,
President Morales.<br><br>
</ul><b>AMY GOODMAN: </b>The Bolivian President Evo Morales speaking to
us here in Copenhagen. This is <i>Democracy Now!</i>, democracynow.org.
It’s Climate Countdown. You can go to our website at democracynow.org to
read the transcript of what President Morales had to say and also to see
or hear the video podcast.<br><br>
<br><br>
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