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<h1><b>Exclusive: Hamas leader
interview</b></h1><font size=3>
<a href="http://www.newstatesman.com/print/200909170013#">Ken
Livingstone</a><br>
<a href="http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2009/09/israel-palestinian-hamas" eudora="autourl">
http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2009/09/israel-palestinian-hamas<br>
<br>
</a>Published 17 September 2009<br><br>
In a world exclusive, Ken Livingstone discusses religion, violence and
the chances for peace with the Hamas leader Khaled Meshal <br>
<img src="http://images.newstatesman.com/articles/2009/1050/20090916_3709meshal_w.jpg" width=441 height=280 alt="[]">
<br><br>
The key to peace in the Middle East is restoration of international law
and the recognition of the right of both Palestinians and Israeli Jews to
live in peace and security side by side. As President Obama says, there
is no peace process today. Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu,
continues to extend illegal settlements in the West Bank and East
Jerusalem and maintain a near-complete blockade of Gaza. Palestinians
fire ineffectual rockets into Israel. Israel regularly attacks
Palestinian territories with modern weapons.<br><br>
No major conflict can be resolved without each side talking to the other.
That was the case in South Africa, Ireland and countless other situations
where people said they would never talk to their opponents. I was
vilified in the Eighties for saying that, to resolve the Irish conflict,
you had to talk to Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.<br><br>
In the Middle East, peace can only be achieved through discussion between
the elected representatives of both the Israelis and the Palestinians -
and that means Hamas, which won a big majority in the last Palestinian
parliamentary election, as well as Fatah. This does not mean that I agree
with the views of Hamas, Fatah or the government of Israel. Far from it:
I do not. For example, I think a number of passages in the original Hamas
charter are unacceptable and should be repudiated. Many observers believe
that this is also the view of some in Hamas.<br><br>
Yet, for too many people, Hamas as an organisation remains opaque. What
they know about it is derived from a hostile media; it has no face. Most
would probably think its leader is some disturbed Osama Bin Laden figure.
In fact, al-Qaeda's supporters in Gaza are so hostile to Hamas that they
have declared war on it.<br><br>
For these reasons, I thought it important to interview the de facto
leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshal, who lives in exile in Syria. Not every
issue is clear. But at the beginning of any peace process, what matters
most is engagement. Dialogue is necessary to get to clarity and mutual
understanding. Sinn Fein did not answer every question at the beginning
and neither does Binyamin Netanyahu today. The answers from Meshal come
at a time of heightened tensions and renewed death threats against him,
adding to the permanent danger of assassination bids not only by the
Israelis, but also al-Qaeda supporters in the region.<br><br>
I hope this interview will help to make the case for the dialogue that is
needed, which I believe is inevitable. It is simply a question of how
much suffering there will be, on both sides, before we get
there.<br><br>
<b>Ken Livingstone:</b> Could you explain a little about your childhood
and the experiences that shaped your development into the person you are
today?<br><br>
<b>Khaled Meshal:</b> I was born in the West Bank village of Silwad near
Ramallah in 1956. In my early age, I learned from my father how he was
part of the Palestinian revolution against the British mandate in
Palestine in the Thirties and how he fought, alongside other Palestinians
using primitive weapons, against the well-equipped and trained Zionist
gangs attacking Palestinian villages in 1948.<br><br>
I lived in Silwad for 11 years until the 1967 war, when I was forced with
my family, like hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, to leave home and
settle in Jordan. That was a shocking experience I will never
forget.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What happened to you after the war?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Soon afterwards, I left Jordan for Kuwait, where my father had
already been working and living since before 1967. After completing my
primary education in 1970, I joined the prestigious Abdullah al-Salim
Secondary School. In the early Seventies, it was a hub of intense
political and ideological activity.<br><br>
During my second year at al-Salim school, I joined the Muslim Brotherhood
(al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun). Upon finishing my fourth year successfully I
secured admission to Kuwait University, where I studied for a BSc degree
in physics.<br><br>
Kuwait University had an active branch of the General Union of
Palestinian Students (GUPS), which had been under the absolute control of
the Fatah movement. I and my fellow Islamists decided, in 1977, to join
GUPS, which we had previously shunned, and contest its leadership
election. However, working from within GUPS proved impossible; we felt
constantly impeded and realised we Islamists would never be given a
chance. By 1980, two years after I graduated, my juniors decided to leave
GUPS and form their own Palestinian association on campus.<br><br>
Many of the students had become disillusioned with the Palestinian
leadership, who seemed intent on settling for much less than what they
<br>
had grown up dreaming of, namely the complete liberation of Palestine and
the return of all the refugees to their homes.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What is the situation in Gaza today?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Gaza today is under siege. Crossings are closed most of the
time and for months victims of the Israeli war on Gaza have been denied
access to construction materials to rebuild their destroyed homes.
Schools, hospitals and homes in many parts of the Gaza Strip are in need
of rebuilding. Tens of thousands of people remain homeless. As winter
approaches, the conditions of these victims will only get worse in the
cold and rain. One and a half million people are held hostage in one of
the biggest prisons in the history of humanity. They are unable to travel
freely out of the Strip, whether for medical treatment, for education or
for other needs. What we have in Gaza is a disaster and a crime against
humanity perpetrated by the Israelis. The world community, through its
silence and indifference, colludes in this crime.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Why do you think Israel is still imposing the siege on
Gaza?<br><br>
KM: The Israelis claim that the siege is for security reasons. The real
intention is to pressure Hamas by punishing the entire population. The
sanctions were put in place soon after Hamas won the Palestinian
elections in January 2006. While security is one of their concerns, it is
not the main motivation. The primary objective is to provoke a coup
against the results of the democratic elections that brought Hamas to
power. The Israelis and their allies seek to impose failure on Hamas by
persecuting the people. This is a hideous and immoral endeavour. Today,
the siege continues despite the fact that we have, for the past six
months, observed a ceasefire. Last year, a truce was observed from June
to December 2008. Yet the siege was never lifted, and the sanctions
remained in place. Undermining Hamas is the main objective of the siege.
The Israelis hope to turn the people of Gaza against Hamas by increasing
the suffering of the entire population of the Strip.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> How many supporters of Hamas and elected representatives of
Hamas are there in prison in Israel? Have they all been charged and
convicted of crimes?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Out of a total of 12,000 Palestinian captives in Israeli
detention, around 4,000 are Hamas members. These include scores of
ministers and parliamentarians (Palestinian Legislative Council members).
Around ten have recently been released, but about 40 PLC members remain
in detention. Some have been given sentences, but many are held in what
the Israelis call administrative detention. The only crime these people
are accused of is their association with Hamas's parliamentary group.
Exercising one's democratic right is considered a crime by Israel. All
these Palestinians are brought before an Israeli system of justice that
has nothing to do with justice. The Israeli judiciary is an instrument of
the occupation. In Israel, there are two systems of justice: one applies
to Israelis and another applies to the Palestinians. This is an apartheid
regime.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What part, if any, do other states and institutions, such as
the US, the EU, Britain, Egypt, or the Palestinian Authority, play in the
blockade of Gaza?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> The blockade of Gaza would never have succeeded had it not
been for the collusion of regional and international powers.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> How do you think the blockade can be lifted?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> In order for the blockade to be lifted, the rule of
international law must be respected. The basic human rights of the
Palestinians and their right to live in dignity and free from persecution
would have to be acknowledged. There has to be an international will to
serve justice and uphold the basic principles of international human
rights law. The international community would have to free itself from
the shackles of Israeli pressure, speak the truth and act
accordingly.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Israel says that the bombing and invasion of Gaza last year
was in response to repeated breaking of the ceasefire by Hamas and the
firing of rockets into southern Israel. Is this the case?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> The Israelis are not telling the truth. We entered into a
truce deal with Israel from 19 June to 19 December 2008. Yet the blockade
was not lifted. The deal entailed a bilateral ceasefire, lifting the
blockade and opening the crossings. We fully abided by the ceasefire
while Israel only partially observed it, and towards the end of the term
it resumed hostilities. Throughout that period, Israel maintained the
siege and only intermittently opened some of the crossings, allowing no
more than 10 per cent of the basic needs of the Gazan population to get
through. <br>
Israel killed the potential for renewing the truce because it
deliberately and repeatedly violated it.<br><br>
I have always informed my western visitors, including the former US
president Jimmy Carter, that the moment Hamas is offered a truce that
<br>
includes lifting the blockade and opening the crossings, Hamas will adopt
a positive stance. So far, no one has made us any such offer. As far as
we are concerned, the blockade amounts to a declaration of war that
warrants self-defence.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What are the ideology and goals of Hamas?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Our people have been the victims of a colonial project called
Israel. For years, we have suffered various forms of repression. Half of
our people have been dispossessed and are denied the right to return to
their homes, and half live under an occupation regime that violates their
basic human rights. Hamas struggles for an end to occupation and for the
restoration of our people's rights, including their right to return
home.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What is your view of the cause of the conflict between the
state of Israel and the Palestinians?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> The conflict is the outcome of aggression and occupation. Our
struggle against the Israelis is not because they are Jewish, but because
they invaded our homeland and dispossessed us. We do not accept that
because the Jews were once persecuted in Europe they have the right to
take our land and throw us out. The injustices suffered by the Jews in
Europe were horrible and criminal, but were not perpetrated by the
Palestinians or the Arabs or the Muslims. So, why should we be punished
for the sins of others or be made to pay for their crimes?<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Do you believe that Israel intends to continue to expand its
borders?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Israel does not, officially, have stated borders. When Israel
was created in our homeland 62 years ago, its founders dreamed of a
"Greater Israel" that extended from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Expansionism manifested itself on different occasions: in 1956, in 1967
and later on in the occupation of parts of Lebanon in the Eighties. Arab
weakness, Israeli military superiority, the support given to Israel by
the western powers, and the massacres it was prepared to commit against
unarmed civilians in Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon, enabled it to expand
from time to time. Although expansionism still lurks in the minds of many
Israelis, it would seem that this is no longer a practical option.
Lebanese and Palestinian resistance has forced Israel to withdraw
unilaterally from lands it had previously occupied through war and
aggression. While in the past Israel was able to defeat several Arab
armies, today it faces formidable resistance that will not only check its
expansionism but also, in time, force it to relinquish more of the land
that it illegally occupies.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What are your principal goals? Is Hamas primarily a political
or a religious organisation?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Hamas is a national liberation movement. We do not see a
contradiction between our Islamic identity and our political mission.
While we engage the occupiers through resistance and struggle to achieve
our people's rights, we are proud of our religious identity that derives
from Islam. Unlike the experience of the Europeans with Christianity,
Islam does not provide for, demand or recognise an ecclesiastical
authority. It simply provides a set of broad guidelines whose detailed
interpretations are subject to and the product of human endeavour
(ijtihad).<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Are you committed to the destruction of Israel?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> What is really happening is the destruction of the Palestinian
people by Israel; it is the one that occupies our land and exiles us,
kills us, <br>
incarcerates us and persecutes our people. We are the victims, Israel is
the oppressor, and not vice versa.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Why does Hamas support military force in this
conflict?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Military force is an option that our people resort to because
nothing else works. Israel's conduct and the collusion of the
international community, whether through silence or indifference or
actual embroilment, vindicate armed resistance. We would love to see this
conflict <br>
resolved peacefully. If occupation were to come to an end and our people
enabled to exercise self-determination in their homeland, there would
then be no need for any use of force. The reality is that nearly 20 years
of peaceful negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis have
not restored any of our rights. On the contrary, we have incurred more
suffering and more losses as a result of the one-sided compromises made
by the Palestinian negotiating party.<br><br>
Since the PLO entered into the Oslo peace deal with Israel in 1993, more
Palestinian land in the West Bank has been expropriated by the Israelis
to build more illegal Jewish settlements, expand existing ones or
construct highways for the exclusive use of Israelis living in these
settlements. The apartheid wall that the Israelis erected along the West
Bank has consumed large areas of the land that was supposed to be
returned to the Palestinians according to the peace deal.<br><br>
The apartheid wall and hundreds of checkpoints turned the West Bank into
isolated enclaves like cells in a large prison, which makes <br>
life intolerable.<br><br>
Jerusalem is constantly tampered with in order to alter its landscape and
identity, and hundreds of Palestinian homes have been destroyed inside
the city and around it, making thousands of Palestinians homeless in
their own homeland. Instead of releasing Palestinian prisoners, the
Israelis have arrested an additional 5,000 Palestinians since the
Annapolis peace conference in 2007 - actions that testify to the fact
they simply aren't interested in peace at all.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Does Hamas engage in military activity outside
Palestine?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> No; since its establishment 22 years ago, Hamas has confined
its field of military operation to occupied Palestine.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Do you wish to establish an Islamic state in Palestine in
which all other religions are subordinate?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Our priority as a national liberation movement is to end the
Israeli occupation of our homeland. Once our people are free in their
land and enjoy the right to self-determination, they alone have the final
say on what system of governance they wish to live under. It is our firm
belief that Islam cannot be imposed on the people. We shall campaign, in
a fully democratic process, for an Islamic agenda. If that is what the
people opt for, then that is their choice. We believe that Islam is the
best source of guidance and the best guarantor for the rights of Muslims
and non-Muslims alike.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Does Hamas impose Islamic dress in Gaza? For example, is it
compulsory in Gaza for women to wear the hijab, niqab or burqa?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> No. Intellectually, Hamas derives its vision from the people's
culture and religion. Islam is our religion and is the basic constituent
of our culture. We do not deny other Palestinians the right to have
different visions. We do not impose on the people any aspects of religion
or social conduct. Features of religion in Gaza society are genuine and
spontaneous; they have not been imposed by any authority other than the
faith and conviction of the observant.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> It is suggested that the division in the Palestinian people
between the West Bank and Gaza and between Fatah and Hamas, which
obviously weakens their position, came about because Hamas seized power
by force in Gaza. Is this true and how do you explain this
division?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Undoubtedly, division does weaken the Palestinians and harms
their cause. However, the division is caused not by Hamas, but by the
insistence of certain international and regional parties on reversing the
results of Palestinian democracy. It dismayed them that Hamas was elected
by the Palestinian people.<br><br>
The division is compounded by the existence of a Palestinian party that
seeks empowerment from those same regional and international <br>
parties, including the US and Israel, that wish to see Hamas out of the
arena. Soon after its victory in the election of January 2006, every
effort was exerted to undermine the ability of Hamas to govern.<br><br>
When these efforts failed, General Keith Dayton, of the United States
army, who currently serves as US security co-ordinator for Israel and the
Palestinian Authority, was despatched to Gaza to plot a coup against the
Hamas-led national unity government that came out of the Mecca agreement
of 2007. The plot prompted Hamas in Gaza to act in self-defence in the
events of June 2007. The claim that Hamas carried out a coup is baseless
because Hamas was leading the democratically elected government. All it
did was act against those who were plotting a coup against it under the
command and guidance of General Dayton.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Do those of other political or religious views such as Fatah
enjoy democratic freedoms in Gaza? What is the situation of Hamas members
in the West Bank territories controlled by Fatah?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Some Palestinian factions have been inspired by Arab
nationalism, others by Marxism or Leninism, and others by liberalism.
While we strongly believe that these ideas are alien to our people and
have failed to meet their aspirations, we insist that the people are the
final arbiter on whom they wish to lead them and by which system they
desire to be governed. Thus, democracy is our best option for settling
our internal Palestinian differences. Whatever the people choose will
have to be respected.<br><br>
We endeavour to the best of our ability to protect the human rights and
civil liberties of the affiliates of Fatah and all the other factions
within the Gaza Strip. In contrast, the Palestinians in the West Bank
under Israeli occupation and the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah
continue to be denied their basic rights. General Dayton is in the West
Bank supervising the severe and brutal crackdown on Hamas and other
Palestinian groups. More than 1,000 political prisoners, including
students, university professors and professionals in all fields are
hunted down, detained and tortured, sometimes to death, by the US-,
British- and EU-trained and -sponsored Palestinian Authority's security
force.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Do you believe it is possible to reunite the Palestinian
people? If so, how do you think this could be done and within what kind
of timescale?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> It is possible to reunite the Palestinians. In order for this
to happen two things are needed. First, foreign interventions and demands
must stop. The Palestinian people should be left to deal with their own
differences without external pressure. Second, all Palestinian parties
must respect the rules of the democratic game and submit to the results
of its process.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Hamas's refusal to recognise Israel is frequently cited as an
insuperable obstacle to negotiations and a peace settlement.<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> This issue is only used as a pretext. Israel does not
recognise the rights of the Palestinian people, yet this is not raised as
an obstacle to <br>
Israel being internationally recognised nor to it being allowed to take
part in talks. The reality is that Israel is the one that occupies the
land and possesses superior power. Rather than ask the Palestinians, who
are the victims, it is Israel, who is the oppressor, who should be asked
to recognise the rights of the Palestinians.<br><br>
In the past, Yasser Arafat recognised Israel but failed to achieve much.
Today, Mahmoud Abbas recognises Israel, but we have yet to see any of the
promised dividends of the peace process.<br><br>
Israel concedes only under pressure. In the absence of any tangible
pressure on Israel by the Arabs or by the international community, no
settlement will succeed.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> Do you have a "road map" of interim steps which
could realistically lead to a peaceful settlement of the conflict? Do you
think Jews, Muslims and Christians can one day live together in peace in
the Holy Land?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> We do, in Hamas, believe that a realistic peaceful settlement
to the conflict will have to begin with a ceasefire agreement between the
two sides based on a full withdrawal of Israel from all the territories
occupied in 1967. Israeli intransigence and the lack of will to act on
the part of the international community are what impede this settlement.
We believe that only once our people are free and back in their land will
they be able to determine the future of the conflict.<br><br>
It should be reiterated here that we do not resist the Israelis because
they are Jews. As a matter of principle, we do not have problems with the
Jews or the Christians, but do have a problem with those who attack us
and oppress us. For many centuries, Christians, Jews and Muslims
coexisted peacefully in this part of the world. Our society never
witnessed the sort of racism and genocide that Europe saw until recently
against "the other". These issues started in Europe.
Colonialism was imposed on this region by Europe, and Israel was the
product of the oppression of the Jews in Europe and not of any such
problem that existed in the Muslim land.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What role do you think that other countries and organisations,
in particular the US, EU and Britain, are currently playing in the
Israel/ Palestine conflict and the divisions between the
Palestinians?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> The role played by all these has thus far been negative. The
attitude towards Israeli crimes against our people has been either
silence or collusion. The policies and positions adopted by these parties
have contributed to the Palestinian division or augmented it. On the one
hand, conditions are stipulated that have the effect of torpedoing unity
talks and reconciliation efforts. On the other hand, some of these
international parties are directly embroiled in suppressing our people in
the West Bank. The US and the EU provide funding, training and guidance
to build a Palestinian security apparatus specialised in the persecution
of critics of the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah.<br><br>
We have particularly been concerned about reports that the British
government, directly as well as indirectly by means of security firms and
the services of retired army, police and intelligence officers, is fully
involved in the programme led by General Dayton against Hamas in the West
Bank.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What should countries such as the US and Britain do to assist
a peaceful settlement?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> They should simply uphold international law - the occupation
is illegal, the annexation of East Jerusalem is illegal, the settlements
are illegal, the apartheid wall is illegal, and the siege of Gaza is
illegal. Yet nothing is done.<br><br>
<b>KL:</b> What relations does Hamas wish to have with the rest of the
world, and, for example, with Britain?<br><br>
<b>KM:</b> Hamas defends a just cause. For this purpose, it desires to
open up to the world. The movement seeks to establish good relations and
to conduct constructive dialogue with all those concerned with
Palestine.<br><br>
<br><br>
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