[News] Kashmir - Interview With Syed Ali Shah Geelani
Anti-Imperialist News
news at freedomarchives.org
Thu Oct 28 11:54:25 EDT 2010
Interview With Syed Ali Shah Geelani
By Yoginder Sikand
28 October, 2010
<http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamInterview_1.aspx?ArticleID=3590>Newageislam.com
http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamInterview_1.aspx?ArticleID=3590
Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Jamaat-e Islami of
Jammu and Kashmir is a veteran Kashmiri
politician. Presently, he heads the Tehrik-e
Hurriyat-e Jammu Kashmir. He talks about the
Kashmir conflict and its possible solution in
this exclusive interview with Yoginder Sikand
Q: In your writings, and in those of other
similar Islamist ideologues, the Kashmir conflict
is often described as a war between Islam and
disbelief. Do you really think it is so? Is it
not a political struggle or a nationalist struggle, actually?
A: The Kashmir dispute is a fall-out of the
Partition of India. The Muslim-majority parts of
British India became Pakistan, and the
Hindu-majority regions became the Dominion of
India. There were, at that time, some 575
princely states in India under indirect British
rule. Lord Mountbatten gave them the choice of
joining either India or Pakistan, and instructed
that their choice must be guided by the religious
composition of their populace as well as by the
borders they might share with either India or Pakistan, as the case might be.
On this basis, almost all the princely states
opted for either India or Pakistan. There were,
however, three exceptions to this. Hyderabad, a
Hindu-majority state with a Muslim ruler, opted
for independence, but India argued against this
on the grounds that the state had a Hindu
majority, and so ordered the Police Action to
incorporate the state into the Indian Dominion.
Junagadh, another Hindu-majority state with a
Muslim ruler, opted for Pakistan, but India
over-ruled this decision, again on account of the
states Hindu majority, and annexed it. If India
had adopted the same principle in the case of
Jammu and Kashmir, a Muslim-majority state with a
Hindu ruler, there would have been no conflict
over Kashmir. After all, more than 85% of the
population of the state at that time were
Muslims; the major rivers in the state flowed
into Pakistan; the state shared a border of over
750 kilometres with Pakistan; the only motorable
road connecting Kashmir with the outside world
throughout the year passed from Srinagar to
Rawalpindi; and the majority of the people of the
state had cultural and historical ties with the people of Pakistan.
However, over-ruling these factors, which would
have made Jammu and Kashmir a natural part of
Pakistan, in October 1947 the Indian Army entered
the state in the guise of flushing out the Pathan
tribesmen, who had crossed into Kashmir in the
wake of large-scale killings of Muslims in
Rajouri and Poonch. Using this incursion an
excuse, Hari Singh, the ruler of Kashmir,
engineered the intrusion of Indian forces. The
British scholar Alistair Lamb says that the
so-called Instrument of Accession that Haris
Singh is said to have signed to join India
temporarily was itself fraudulent. He claims that
Hari Singh did not even sign it.
Thereafter, India itself took the issue of
Kashmir to the United Nations. The UN passed some
eighteen resolutions related to Kashmir,
recognizing the status of the state as disputed
and calling for a resolution of the conflict
based on the will of the people of the state,
which the first Indian Prime Minister, Jawaharlal
Nehru, himself also publicly promised. Now, all
that the people of Jammu and Kashmir are saying
is that India should live up to this promise that
it made of holding a plebiscite in accordance
with the UN resolutions. So, this is the basic issue.
Q: So, arent you here saying that the conflict
is essentially political, and not specifically religious?
A: For a Muslim, no action is permissible which
is against Islam. How can we say that the
sacrifices that the Muslims of Kashmir make, the
tortures that they suffer, and the martyrdom that
they meet have nothing to do with Islam, and that
they wont be rewarded by God for this? In this
sense, it is a religious issue also. Islam
teaches that Muslims must follow the guidance of
Islam in every action of theirsnot just in
prayers but also in matters such as war and
peace, trade, international relations and so on,
because Islam is a complete way of life. If a
true Muslim participates in any struggle, it is
for the sake of Islam. So, how can you say that
the Kashmir conflict has nothing to do with religion?
Q: This might be true in theory, but surely many
Kashmiris who are involved in the movement for
separation from India might be motivated by other
factors, including for economic and political
reasons, or also due to a commitment to Kashmiri
nationalism, as distinct from Islam?
A: I agree that there may be various reasons why
different people may participate in the movement.
Yes, there can be many who do not adopt the
guidance of Islam in this regard. They might
champion secular democracy and irreligiousness.
Their sacrifices might be motivated by
nationalism or ethnicity, rather than Islam. They
might have no problem with the system of
governance in India, their opposition to Indian
rule being simply because of the brutalities of
Indian occupation. Of course, one cannot say that
all Kashmiri Muslims think alike. But I am
speaking from the point of view of a practicing
Muslim, who accepts Islam as a complete way of
life. For such self-conscious Kashmiri Muslims,
it is undoubtedly a religious issue and their
sacrifices are for the sake of the faith.
Q: Maulana Maududi, the founder of the Jamaat-e
Islami, who is a major source of inspiration for
you, opposed the creation of Pakistan. So, then,
why is that that you have consistently been
advocating Kashmirs union with Pakistan?
A: You are wrong here. Maulana Maududi was not
opposed to the creation of Pakistan and to the
two nation theory. What he was opposed to was
the practice of the Muslim League leaders, who
were leading the movement for Pakistan. He told
them that while they talked of the two-nation
theory and Islam, they were not serious about
establishing an Islamic state in Pakistan. They
were not preparing the activists of the League
for an Islamic state. Maulana Maududi wanted
Pakistan to be an Islamic state, and this was the
grounds for his opposition to the Muslim League.
But he, like the League, supported the
two-nation theory. In fact, the League did not
have any theoretical justification for its two
nation theory until this was provided by Maulana
Maududi through his copious writings.
Q: But do you really see Indian Hindus and
Muslims as two separate nations? After all, they share so much in common.
A: They are totally separate nations. There is no
doubt at all about this. Muslims believe in just
one God, but Hindus believe in crores of gods.
Q: But the Prophet Muhammad, in his treaty with
the Jews and other non-Muslims of Medina,
described the denizens of Medina as members of
one nation. The leader of the Jamiat ul-Ulema-i
Hind and a leading Deobandi scholar, Maulana
Husain Ahmad Madani, even wrote a book to argue
against the Leagues two nation theory,
stressing a composite Indian nationalism that
embraced all the people of India. So, how can the
Muslims and Hindus of one country be considered
separate nations, even by Islamic standards?
A: Islam lays down that in an Islamic system
(nizam) all non-Muslims, including even atheists,
will get equality, justice, security of life and
property and freedom of faith. Maulana Madanis
arguments were critiqued by Maulana Maududi.
Q: In your prison memoirs, Rudad-e Qafas, you
write that It is as difficult for a Muslim to
live in a non-Muslim society as it is for a fish
to live in a desert. But how can this be so?
After all, the pioneers of Islam in India and in
Kashmir itself, mainly Sufi saints, lived and
preached in a society in which Muslims were a very small minority.
A: I meant to say this in a particular sense.
Islam, as I said, is a complete way of life. No
other path is acceptable to God. So, in the
absence of an Islamic polity, it is difficult for
Muslims to lead their lives entirely in
accordance with the rules of Islam, which apply
to social affairs as much as they do to personal
affairs. For instance, Muslims in Kashmir under
Indian rule live in a system where alcohol,
interest and immorality are rife, so how can we
lead our lives completely in accordance with
Islam? Of course, Muslim minorities are Muslims,
too, but their duty must be to work to establish
an Islamic dispensation in the lands where they
live so that they can lead their lives fully in
accordance with Islam and its laws. Missionary
work to spread Islam is as much of a duty as is
praying and giving alms to the poor. Now, as for
your question about those Sufis who lived and
worked in societies where Muslims were in a
minoritythey may have been pious people, but we
take as our only model the Prophet Muhammad.
Q: But, surely, no one is forced to drink
alcohol, deal in interest or act immorally in Kashmir?
A: True, but these things automatically spread
since they are allowed by the present un-Islamic
system. So that is why you see the degeneration
of our culture and values happening on such a large scale.
Q: You mentioned about preaching Islam being a
principal duty of all Muslims. But, surely, for
this you need a climate of peace, not of active hostility, as in Kashmir today?
A: Absolutely. I agree with you entirely. No one
can deny this. We need to have good relations
with people of other communities. Only then can
we communicate the message of Islam to them. But
if one side continues to oppress the other and
heap injustices and says that this should be
considered as peace, how can it be accepted?
If, for instance, Narendra Modi says that what
happened with the Muslims in Gujarat represents
peace, how can anyone accept it? If India
stations lakhs of troops in Kashmir and says this
is for establishing peace, how can it be, because
these troops themselves are disturbing the peace?
Q: You, following other Islamist ideologues, have
consistently been advocating what you call an
Islamic state, seeing this as an indispensable
Islamic duty. To your mind, which is the best
functioning Islamic state in the world today?
A: The world-wide Muslim community ummah is today
in such a sorry state that there is no Islamic
state anywhere in the real sense. Saudi Arabia is
described as an Islamic state, but it is run by a
monarchy, and monarchy has no sanction in Islam.
If Muslim countries, including those that claim
to be Islamic, were truly Islamic states they
would never have been enslaved to America, as is
the case today. They all support Americas
policies and adopt its dictates. They are
completely, on all accounts, dependent on
America. They cannot even defend themselves. They
have to rely on America and Europe to do this.
They keep their money in American banks. We say
that they should use their wealth to empower
themselves and get out of Americas clutches and
convert themselves into genuine Islamic states.
Q: In the wake of the attacks of 11 September,
2001, how do you see the impact of American
pressure on Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, to
change their position on Islamist movements?
A: The events of September 2001 have caused most
Muslim states to change their policies and to toe
Americas line even more closely. You can see
this happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The
only Muslim country that refuses to cave under American pressure is Iran.
Q: And now America is seeking an excuse to attack Iran, is it not?
A: Yes. America is trying to stoke Shia-Sunni
rivalries in order to undermine Iran. It is
trying all other such weapons, dividing the
Muslims on the basis of sect, nationality, race
and ethnicity against each other so as to weaken
them. And the leaders of most Muslim countries
are now playing the role of agents of the USA, be
it in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Palestine or as
is the case with the Saudi monarchs. See whats
happening in Waziristan, the Frontier Province
and Baluchistan, in Pakistan. A climate is being
deliberately created in those parts of Pakistan
to justify American attacks and bombings in the name of flushing out militants.
Q: If Pakistan is now so pro-American, acting
against its own people, and if it is not an
authentic Islamic state, then why have you been
advocating Kashmirs union with it?
A: As I said earlier, the Muslim League claimed
that Pakistan was won in the name of Islam, but
it did not give its cadre the necessary training
to establish an Islamic state there. Because of
this, the influence of the Army and the countrys
Westernised leadership, Pakistan failed to become
an Islamic state. But it was meant to become such
a state, which is something that we want. So, if
the people of Jammu and Kashmir were given the
right to decide between India and Pakistan, the
majority, I think, would prefer the former.
I admit that there are weaknesses in Pakistan,
but these can be addressed. India has a secular
system, which we can under no condition accept.
Because of the oppression that we have been
suffering under Indian rule for the last sixty
years, how can we opt for India? In just a few
weeks, in late 1947, some five lakh Muslims were
killed by Dogra forces and Hindu chauvinists in
Jammu. In the last seventeen years, over one lakh
Kashmiri Muslims, mainly innocent civilians, have
been killed. So many localities have been burned
down, women raped and men rendered missing. After
such brutal experiences, only a blind person would opt in favour of India.
Q: Many Kashmiri Muslims would rather be
independent than join India or Pakistan. Do you agree?
A: The UN resolutions provide for only two
options: joining India or Pakistan, and if this
rule is followed then the majority would, I
think, opt for Pakistan. However, if the three
parties to the disputePakistan, India and the
people of Jammu and Kashmircome to a consensus
on an independent Jammu and Kashmir, then, as I
have repeatedly said, we will accept that formula also.
Q: In some of your writings you have argued
against Kashmir being an independent state, even
claiming that this is an Indian ploy. Can you elaborate?
A: This is true. It is an Indian ploy, because
India does not want to see Pakistan strengthened,
which it would be if Jammu and Kashmir joins
Pakistan. The slogan of Azadi is aimed at
weakening Pakistan. Independence would result in
a territory that would have been a natural part
of Pakistan being taken away from it. But, then,
compared to staying with India, independence is a lesser evil.
Q: Many Kashmiris, seeing the current political
and economic troubles in Pakistan, might say that
they would prefer to be independent.
A: If we get independence, we will accept it.
Q: What if most people of Jammu and Kashmir wish
to live in a secular or democratic set-up, and
not a Taliban-style Islamic state?
A: We dont want to bring Taliban-type Islam, but
the real Islam of the Quran and the Practice (Sunnah) of the Prophet.
Q: But the Taliban argued that their state was in
accordance with the Quran and the Sunnah.
A: To claim something is different from acting on
that claim. For instance, while Islam makes it a
duty for every Muslim male and female to acquire
education, as soon as the Taliban came to power
they banned girls education. What they should
have done, instead, was to set up separate
schools for girls. So, like this, there are many
issues on which we can differ. The Islamic state
that we would like to establish in Jammu and
Kashmir would be one based on the understanding
that all of humanity are children of the same
primal parents, Adam and Eve. They will all be
treated equally and justly. There shall be no
discrimination based on religion. After all, the
Prophet once remarked that all creatures are of
the family of God and that the best is he who
treats members of Gods familywhich obviously
includes non-Muslims, tooin the best way.
Q: You advocate Kashmirs accession to Pakistan,
but today minority nationalities in Pakistan,
such as the Baluchis and the Sindhis, suffering
under Punjabi domination, are struggling for
independence. Might not the same thing happen to
the Kashmiris if the state were to join Pakistan?
A: We want to join Pakistan, not be absorbed into
it. We would have internal autonomy.
Q: But, surely, despite Pakistans claims, the
part of Jammu and Kashmir under its controlAzad Kashmirlacks real autonomy?
A: Yes, Azad Kashmir cannot be said to be really
autonomous since there, too, everything happens
according to the wishes and directions of the
Federal Government. But we would make sure that our autonomy
be written into the Constitution.
Q: Do you see any significant changes in
Pakistans policies vis-à-vis Kashmir in recent
years, perhaps under American pressure?
A: Yes, considerable changes can be noticed.
Earlier, Pakistan used to insist on the right to
self-determination for the people of Jammu and
Kashmir. Musharraf was the first to change this,
arguing for a solution outside that of the UN
resolutions, an out-of-the-box solution. This
constituted the first deviation in Pakistans
Kashmir policy. Then, Musharraf began talking of
seven zones in Jammu and Kashmir, soft borders
and his four-point formula, which is nothing but
a means to preserve the status quo.
Q: How do you respond to media allegations that
the Kashmiri movement for self-determination is anti-Hindu?
A: How can our struggle be called anti-Hindu?
It is a struggle for certain principles. In Hindu
mythology, when the Kauravas and the Pandavas,
cousins of each other, were arrayed against each
other on the battlefield, Arjun turned to
Krishanji Maharaj, and told him that he could not
bear to fight his own brothers. Why, he asked
him, was he asking him to fight them? He wanted
to refuse to fight. But, then, Krishanji Maharaj
said, Arjun, this is a battle for certain
principles. In this, do not consider the fact
that those who are opposed to you are your
relatives. We Kashmiris, too, are engaging in
such a battle for certain principles with the
Indian Government, for occupying us against our
will and for not acting on its promise to let us
decide our own political future. It is not a war
against Hindus or the people of India. It is not
a communal conflict. In fact, there are many
Indians who support our stand on the right to self-determination.
Q: Then why is it that the Indian media, and
large sections of the Western media, too, present
the movement as Islamic extremism or terrorism?
A: The Indian media is bound to support Indias
military occupation. How can you expect it to
support our cause? Ive seen so many massacres by
the Indian Army here, but often the media
describes them as encounters with militants.
You know how the agents of the Indian Army
engineered the massacre of so many innocent Sikhs
in Chhatisinghpora and falsely attributed this to
militants, in order to convey the misleading
message to the then American President, Bill
Clinton, at that time on a visit to India, that
our struggle is a communal one, and not a
freedom movement. I can cite so many more such cases to prove this point.
Q: But, if that is so, why is it that you and
people like you have not condemned killings by
militants in the same way as you condemn similar crimes by the Indian Army?
A: Wherever such incidents have happened, we have
condemned them, irrespective of the religion of
the victims. The Quran clearly states that enmity
with a people should not make one stray from the
path of justice, because justice is closer to piety.
Q: If Jammu and Kashmir becomes independent, how
do you envisage its relations with India and Pakistan?
A: It should have brotherly relations with both countries.
Q: Some radical groups active in Kashmir argue
that all Hindus are enemies of Islam. What do you feel?
A: No, this is erroneous. There should be no
enmity or discrimination with anyone simply
because of his religion, caste, race, colour or
country. We are permitted to fight only those
individuals who fight us or place hurdles in the
path of our faith. With others we should have
good relations, and that applies to our relations
with ordinary Hindus as well. So, when some
people argue that as a community the Hindus are
enemies of Islam, it is wrong. It is not an Islamic way of thinking.
Q: Certain militant groups active in Kashmir say
that they will not stop their war with India
until India itself is absorbed into Pakistan
and the Pakistani flag flies atop Delhis Red Fort. What is your opinion?
A: This is emotional talk and should not be paid
attention to. We dont agree with this argument.
Our fight with India is only to the extent that
India has taken away our right to
self-determination. Once we win that right we
will have no problem with India. In fact, if by
exercising this right the majority of the people
of Jammu and Kashmir say that they want to be
with India, we will also accept that.
Q: But dont you feel certain radical groups
active in Kashmir who preach hatred against
Hindus and call for Indias absorption into
Pakistan are actually defaming the religion whose cause they claim to champion?
A: Islam has been given a bad name more by
Muslims themselves and less by Hindus. Islam has
been damaged less by open disbelief (kufr) than
by hidden hypocrisy (munafiqat), by people who
claim to be Muslims but are really not so in practice.
Q: So, would you agree that these groups who
condemn all Hindus as enemies are actually misinterpreting Islam?
A: We cannot take responsibility for what others
say. You can ask these people yourself.
Q: What message do you have for the people of India?
A: I will only say that India should honour its
promise to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to let
them decide their own political future. Honouring
ones promise is a major principle of the Hindu
religion. Raja Dasharath, honouring the promise
he made to his wife Kaikeyi, gave his throne to
his son Bharat and ordered Ram Chandraji to go
into the forest in exile. Simply in order to keep
his promise he sent his elder son to fourteen
years in the forest and gave the throne to Bharat
instead. Bharat was a man of character, and so he
placed Ram Chandrajis sandals on the throne,
believing that his elder brother deserved to
rule. So, the Hindu religion teaches that one
should live up to ones promises, and if India
were to act on the advice of the Hindu scriptures
in this regard on the issue of Kashmir the conflict will easily be solved.
Copyright 2010 @: New Age Islam Foundation
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