[News] Think Twice Before You Oppose the Minutemen
Anti-Imperialist News
News at freedomarchives.org
Tue Mar 28 08:58:49 EST 2006
http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs03272006.html
March 27
The Anti-Minutemen Five
Think Twice Before You Oppose the Minutemen
By RON JACOBS
There have been a number of massive protests
across the United States for immigrant rights in
recent weeks. The particular impetus for these
protests is a bill authored by the anti-immigrant
Congressmen Rep. Sensenbrenner and his allies
that was passed by the House in late 2005 and is
currently being considered in the Senate. The
bill, numbered H.B. 4437, is a repressive piece
of legislation authored by one of the most
reactionary legislators in the Congress. Not only
would it penalize undocumented workers, it would
also criminalize any acts designed to help these
members of US society. This bill is just the most
obvious aspect of a growing wave of
anti-immigrant sentiment in the United States.
Back in October, the anti-immigrant vigilante
group The Minutemen held a conference in
Arlington Heights, Illinois. People opposed to
the Minutemen's agenda protested the event. Five
were arrested by police in what many witnesses
agreed were rather brutal arrests. The
<http://antiminutemen5.tk/>Anti-Minutemen Five-as
they are known in the Chicago area--are scheduled
to stand trial on April 25, 2006 on a variety of
charges. I recently contacted the arrestees
through their defense organization. Some of them
agreed to answer some questions I emailed to
them. A transcript of our email conversation follows:
Ron:Hi. I want to start with an introduction. Can
you tell me your name and what you do for a living?
My name is Cynthia "Linda" Gómez, and I make my living doing office work.
My name is Kara "Penny" Norlander. I recently
graduated from Columbia College with a degree in
film and video, then I was working as a waitress
but I quit my job over the summer to organize
more full time with the World Can't Wait- Drive Out the Bush Regime.
Hi Ron, my name is Eric W. Zenke, I'm a publicist
for a Chicago author and volunteer for a local bookstore.
Hey there. My name is Sabah Khan and I'm a
graduate of Univ of IL at Chicago, I'm not
working at the moment, but my last job was with
the Albany Park Neighborhood Council, which is a
community organization and I worked with immigrants and youth.
Ron:Thanks. Let's go to the event you were
protesting. What exactly was its purpose? Where
was it being held? Who was attending?
Eric:The purpose of the Minutemen event, as far
as I know, was to recruit people from the
Chicago-land area for their border patrols. The
purpose of the protest was to stop this from
happening, and to let the neighborhood, and
everyone else, know who these people really were.
Both the Minutemen meeting and the rally were at
the Christian Academy in Arlington Heights.
Penny: We were protesting a conference of the
Illinois Chapter of the Minutemen Project in the
Chicago suburb of Arlington Heights. The
Minutemen are a national organization best known
for their vigilante actions at the Mexican
border, where they hunt and trap people trying to
cross. They are spreading across the country in
an attempt to put a terrible chill on immigrants'
communities- protesting, threatening, and taking
actions to deport people. This was what they were
talking about at the conference, and this was
what we were demonstrating against.
Sabah: The protest on Oct 15, as you know, was to
oppose the Minutemen. There were two protests
that were planned, all in the same spirit though
of course. The first had the initial call out
from the Students for Social Justice at College
of Dupage to be at the site at 8 am, it wasn't
really organized by them. In fact it wasn't much
organized at all! There were a bunch of people
basically publicizing for it and doing minimal
planning. It was awesome though, because there
was just a call out for it and many people came.
There were about 100 people at the first part.
We (the activists that I usually work with, and
I) had heard of the kind of horrible racist
vigilante group that the Minutemen were, and
found it appalling that they were coming to
Chicago. We basically thought that there was no
way that we could sit by and watch this fascist
group try to establish itself in our city to
terrorize our large immigrant population. We did
it for our friends, family, neighbors, and
ourselves. The flyer that my friend made and we
were passing out said "No Pasaran", that is "They
shall Not pass" , as well as "Un Mundo Sin
Fronteras" which means "One World Without
Borders". We did not want the Minutemen to
establish themselves here, that's why the flyer
said 'they shall not pass', which is what
inspired the human chain. But it is sad now that
they are here and in other towns, spreading their
anti-immigrant propaganda. But we're still here
struggling against them and hopefully our case
can help bring this issue to the forefront and
that is why we think it is important that people
understand our case to be a political one.
Because it is. We opposed the racist vigilante
Minutemen and now we're on trial?? No way, we're
going to turn it around on them and put the
Minutemen on trial well that's our plan at least.
The second protest was organized by CAAELI
(Coalition of African Asian, European, and Latino
Immigrants). Around 400 people arrived in buses
to the school at around 11 am for this part. But
everyone was there for the same reason and it
just merged together with people hanging around all around the school.
Cynthia:The Minutemen held an inaugural meeting
of the Illinois Minuteman Project at the
Christian Liberty Academy in Arlington Heights, a
suburb northwest of Chicago, last October 15.
Their actions since that date have given a pretty
good idea of what they were planning in there:
They have held demonstrations at everywhere from
churches that help immigrants fight for their
rights, to Home Depot stores, where they come out
in force to intimidate day laborers, who are
already some of the most exploited immigrants.
When two undocumented immigrants spoke out
against their working conditions at the Oberweiss
Dairy, the Minutemen called the INS on them--and
even demanded that the Illinois Coalition for
Immigrant and Refugee Rights be prosecuted for helping them!
Ron:Now the protest itself. Who called it? How
many people were there? Were there counter-protestors? Lots of cops?
Cynthia:There were about 50 protesters in the
morning, of the group that got there about 8 or 9
AM, and two hours later a group of about 300 or
so more people came. (I don't remember who called
the earlier protest; I think it was a loose
coalition of groups out of UIC and other places.
One of the organizers of the later one was a
group called CALI. ) I didn't see any official
counter-protesters, but looking at the
Minutemen's blogs shows that they bragged about
having infiltrated the protesters. The scene
initially did not involve a lot of cops--no more
than 20 or so, from my guess. However, the police
called in a NIPAS (Northern Illinois Police Alarm
System) team, and an ILEAS (Illinois Law
Enforcement Alarm System) team, which brought out
at least 50 more cops, decked out in full riot
gear and with police dogs and paddy wagons. One
of the things that remains to be seen is whether
they prepared that force well before the day of the protest itself.
Penny: The protest was held and attended by a
number of different groups and individuals. I
came out as a member of the World Can't Wait-
Drive Out the Bush Regime, and we were there in
solidarity with those standing up against the
Minutemen, while we also were trying to connect
up what these vigilantes represent to the whole
way the Bush regime is remaking society in
fascist direction, and for generations to come,
and the need to change the whole political
dynamics in this country, and force out the
Administration. It started early in the morning,
where there was a smaller crowd, but it grew by
lunchtime to a few hundred people- activists,
community organizations, students, and
immigrants. The entire time, people attending the
Minutemen conference were coming outside,
scouting out the protestors, pointing, and taking
pictures. And the police report says explicitly
that it was at the request of people attending
the conference that they moved in on a peaceful
demonstration. There were not many police at
first but later the Arlington Heights Police
Department called in two regional task forces
that are connected to the Department of Homeland
Security and draw from 90 police departments in
the area. They brought full riot gear, dogs, and two large armored vehicles.
Sabah: There were no counter protests, and there
were a few cops, not too many, until afterwards
when the riot cops came but I didn't see it,
because I was already taken away by then.
Eric: I'm not sure who called for the protest...
a bunch of friends (not including any of the
codefendants) had a van heading up to Arlington
Heights to protest fascists, so I jumped in at 7
in the morning, half asleep. At first there were
only about 30 people there, and 4 or 5 cops, by
the time I was arrested there were probably 400,
and at least 150 police in full riot gear. There were no counter-protesters.
Ron:How and why did you get arrested? Did the
cops beat you? How long were you in jail? What are the charges?
Eric: I was arrested for supposed "Battery on a
police officer" and "Resisting arrest," both
misdemeanors. I was arrested at a park after
leaving the area to meet back with my friends and
go home. I was handcuffed and made to walk 2
blocks next to a motorcycle cop to the squad car.
I was in custody for around 4 hours that day. I
was taken into custody and released without incident from the police.
Cynthia:The actual details of the day--the
arrests, etc -- will be answered in court; our
lawyer has asked us not to get into any of that
with the press, but the trial will tell the story
of how key people were singled out at the protest
for having been identified by the police as being
leaders on that day, and that the charges are
completely baseless. As far as the actual
charges, I was charged with one count of battery
and one count of resisting arrest, both Class A
misdemeanors which carry up to a year in jail
each. Each defendant has at least one count of
battery and one of resisting, and some have
additional counts of battery. I understand that
Rehana Sabah Khan was given four counts, which
means up to four years in jail for her.
Sabah: So like is written above the CAAELI buses
arrived at around 11 am. After that everyone was
just hanging around. I was talking to people I
knew who came on the buses, including a co-worker
of mine and some youth from our center, when I
saw a bunch of cops and people run towards an
area. Over there, there was a lot of commotion
which resulted in the police arresting 2 of the
AMM5. I was arrested further away a short while
after, and am accused of resisting arrest and
battery against police officers, 3 to be exact.
They are completely ridiculous charges. I had a
lot of bruises after being arrested and my
arresting officer totally violated my rights by
removing my headscarf as she walked me back to
the protest area and the police car. Although, it
didn't stay off for long because I protested and
told them they had a law suit coming!
I was in jail, or more like the Arlington Hts
police station holding cell, for around 3-4 hrs.
Penny:We've been to court a number of times and
the charges against us still are not clear. We
know there are different counts for each of us,
for resisting a peace officer and battery on a
police officer(both misdemeanors). But the police
and the state's attorney still have not really
said what specifically we are supposed to have
done and when. In the course of my arrest, I was
flung about and shoved to the ground- but again,
they have not made clear why I was put in this
situation, why I spent the afternoon in jail, and
why I'm now facing up to three years in Cook
County. The same goes for the other defendants.
Ron:Let's get to some more political questions.
To what do you attribute the increasingly higher
profile of groups like the Minutemen? I myself
place them in the same space as groups like the
Klan and the Nazis--groups that seem to appear
during times of economic difficulty in the United
States. Indeed, various strains of the US Nazi
movement have been the sponsors of at least two
rallies in the US in recent months (one in Ohio
and one in Florida) that erupted into violence
when locals responded angrily to the Nazis
presence. In both cases, police protected the
Nazis and arrested members of the crowd
protesting them. Do you see the Minutemen in this
way or are they substantively different?
Penny: The Minutemen are a group of vigilantes
who seek to hunt, trap, and put a terrible chill
on immigrant communities across the country- and
they're on the rise. They have gained praise
numerous times from the governor of California as
well as U.S. Congress people. They recently held
a rally on Capitol Hill, with national media
attention, and it seems like every day they're
popping up in interviews on the radio, in print,
or on television. I think there's a very strong
connection between groups like the Minutemen and
the whole onslaught of vicious attacks on
immigrants we're seeing today- the round-ups and
detentions in the dead of night without due
process, and House Bill 4437 that would make it a
felony to be an undocumented person in this
country or to give any aid, including in an
emergency to an undocumented person (we're
talking about millions of people suddenly
becoming felons.) It was also recently revealed
that the U.S. government is granting nearly $400
million to a subsidiary of Haliburton to build
immigrant detention centers that could hold tens
of thousands of people in case of an "immigration
emergency" (pretty scary with House Bill 4437
already having passed the House, and this being
authorized and run by the same Administration
that brings us Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.) In
this climate come the Minutemen, who I think
represent the semi-official shock troops of this
anti-immigrant agenda. While people on high
levels of government make ominous changes in the
law, vigilante groups like this represent the
more "radical face" that take supposedly "more
extreme" actions on the ground to further
legitimize the legislation and further the chill
being put on immigrant communities, those who
support them, and (as in the case of the
persecution of the Anti-Minutemen 5)those who
would oppose this whole direction.
Eric: Funny you should ask ... Many of the
supporters and allies of Save Our State and the
Minutemen are US Neo Nazi organizations such as
National Vanguard, and the National Alliance.
Also, there is a strange connection between what
David Duke and his lackeys were doing in the late
1970's called "Klan Border Watch" it was a
complete KKK sponsored border watch, not unlike
what the minutemen are doing today. California
Border Watch said in 2005 that they no longer
support the Minutemen Project, along with
numerous other projects, simply because many of
their members and allies were of racist or
fascist origin. The original Minutemen of the San
Diego KKK n the 1930's had similar ideas and ethics of todays Minutemen.
Sabah: Well many of the people that oppose the
minutemen definitely put them in the same groups
as the Klan and Nazis, but I think they can get
away with a much higher profile because they
operate on a façade. They adamantly proclaim that
they are not a racist group and that their views
have nothing to do with race and all to do with
the law and 'securing our country'. Now a group
like this, can in fact, be much more dangerous.
They're basically doing the same thing as the
Bush administration when it says they want to
bring freedom and democracy to Iraq, whilst
bombing the crap out of the place. So the
Minutemen are taken much more lightly than Nazis
and are featured in news segments, and features
like the recent huge article about it in the
(Chicago) Reader. One of their favorite lines is
about the head of the Illinois Minutemen being a
Mexican woman as if that automatically negates
any racist accusation. That's like saying that
Condaleeza Rice will do wonderful things for
women and African Americans just because she's a
black woman. She can be as racist and sexist as
anyone else. And being a person who is of color I
definitely know there is something called
internalized racism. People have to look at what
the Minutemen are doing, first of all, and that's
where we get the racist and fascist conclusion.
Also if you look at their websites and forums
they are way worse at being pc, and openly make
racist and ignorant comments, as well as talk
very hatefully towards immigrants and 'socialists' i.e. protesters like us.
But it tells something about the political and
social climate we're in with these Minutemen
getting by so easily. And it definitely should be
seen in light of these Nazi rallies, the horrible
anti- immigrant bill, the renewal of the patriot
act, the unending 'war on terror', and more.
Cynthia:I would describe the Minutemen's role in
this way: they are the shock troops and
brownshirts of these Nazi-like anti-immigrant
programs we're seeing. As you alluded to in your
question, there is one key similarity they have
with groups like the KKK and Neo-Nazi party, as
was very clearly illustrated the weekend of
October 15: that same weekend, our protest
against the Minutemen in Arlington Heights was
attacked, again on the orders of the Minutemen
(they admit as much in the police report), and
the police called a high-level attack squad with
two different alarm systems, bringing in forces
of police drawn from three counties and more than
90 towns, complete with attack dogs and riot
gear--to a peaceful protest. That same weekend,
masses of people who came out to oppose the
Neo-Nazi Party in Toledo were attacked by the
police, while the Neo-Nazis were allowed to
march. At a recent anti-Minutemen protest in
Garden Grove, California, a Minuteman supporter
drove his car into the crowd and the police
standing right there did nothing to arrest him,
until about a half hour later and massive outcry from the crowd.
But a key difference is this Brownshirt point:
the Minutemen are playing the role of carrying
out and enforcing this anti-immigrant agenda, and
whipping up other people to do the same, while
attacking and threatening anyone from churches to
the Mexican Consulate that opposes those
measures. And so they are actually given much
more open legitimacy than the KKK is, and not
just in the form of open police protection: bills
have been proposed to give them funding for their
armed patrols, co-founder Chris Simcox almost won
a Congressional seat from California, Arnold
Schwarzenegger has praised their work. The media
swarmed all over their "debut" patrols last
April, and when Chris Simcox accused his
opposition of being "terrorists", the Associated
Press picked it up and ran it, giving credence
and legitimacy to his claim, and almost
definitely getting Homeland Security on the tail
of those groups--which is the entire point. And
something like that would definitely not happen if the tables were turned.
Ron:I've been following House Bill 4437 that is
currently being considered in the Senate. Can you
explain the major pieces of this bill and why you oppose it?
Cynthia: Legislation like this is being compared
to Nazi Germany, and it should be: it's creating
whole categories of people who have no rights,
and threatening the armed force of the state on
anyone who helps them. It would turn immigrants
into felons--it would make crossing into this
country without permission into a felony, which
would in turn have two effects: it would forever
bar immigrants from getting legal permission to
enter this country ever again, once they've been
caught. And Halliburton recently got awarded a
$385 million contract to build detention centers
for immigrants in the U.S. So you have the
country that runs notorious torture camps like
Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo Bay, and Baghram Air Force
Base, now running detention centers for people
who have been legally cast as people with no
rights, as invading hordes who represent a threat
to the economic and cultural survival of this
country, if not a major security threat. So just
what kinds of horrors will happen to people who
have been demonized and legally disenfranchised in this way?
(The second effect would be that) It would also
make it a felony for anyone to aid or assist
undocumented immigrants--words that don't even
begin to capture the monstrous nature of a law
like this. It would legally require their death
and suffering, by making it illegal for anyone to
help them in any way. Giving medical care--or a
ride to the hospital in an emergency--would make
you a felon. So would renting an apartment or
teaching English or leaving out water to keep
someone from dying in the desert.
Penny: House Bill 4437 (the Sensenbrenner law)
would make it a federal offense to be an
undocumented person in this country or to give
any aid (a job, housing, medical care, education,
or even water or anything in an emergency
situation) to an undocumented person. It would
also further extend, fortify, and militarize the
wall at the border to Mexico. Any person with a
conscience should oppose this bill.
Sabah: I oppose the bill because it would make
any undocumented person an automatic felon, which
is a heavy criminal charge, and bar them from
ever getting good status. Furthermore it would
make a felon out of anyone who helps them. That
includes teachers, churches, medical assistance,
even giving someone a ride. It is utterly
ridiculous. We're talking about people here,
human beings. It is an incredibly fascist bill.
Furthermore it is completely missing the fact
that all these 'illegals' as they are termed are
for the most part good hard-working people, who
are very much a vital part of our economy. What
we have is a complete creation of the global
capitalism that the U.S promotes. I think people
don't get the story straight for the
undocumented. America messes up the economy in
Mexico with things like NAFTA, people over there
have trouble getting by, there are jobs and
'hope' for them here, they risk everything to
cross the border, and then when they are here
they're given menial wages, long hours, and have
their labor abused. This gives companies the
ability to get away with cheap labor, and the
'undocumented' have to sneak around, unable to
get any papers, any security, treated like
basically the lowest class, because they are
'illegal'--this strange invention by people that
proclaims that someone, because of where they
were born, or because of their skin color, or
because of their situation that they couldn't
help, that they are wrong and deserve no rights.
And then in the midst of this, the Minutemen are
complaining that they're coming to invade our
economy and use up our health services its
completely absurd. And then the bill that wants
to make them and anybody who helps them into
felons.. what is this, Nazi Germany?? Oh yes and
in the bill it also calls for the building of a
wall on the border. Need I say more?
Ron: Although I disagree with the terminology
that calls immigrants "aliens" and their presence
the "immigration problem," how does one address
this issue when talking to other US residents?
Eric: I just don't understand how anyone living
in America can have a problem with immigrants. As
a matter of fact, after calling us domestic
terrorists, one of the Minutemen said "Of all the
freedoms you have, please execute this freedom
you have, LEAVE," It's kind of funny to think
that someone so opposed to immigration would
suggest that someone leave the country they were born in.
Sabah: There are a lot of different ways that one
can approach US residents, and it really matters
who you're talking to. First off is to break down
the idea that there is an "immigration problem".
America is a land of immigrants, and if anybody
should be pissed that more people are coming into
the country it would be Native peoples not run of
the mill Americans. And I don't think the
Minutemen have any Native Americans in their
group! Also one could explain about the economy
and how these 'aliens' aren't taking all our jobs
and resources, and turn it around so that they
understand that the problem with the economy lies
in our system but not in individuals. I would
explain how I understand the situation of the
undocumented like I said earlier, and help people
to understand that the problem here is not other
humans that they're trying to make us scapegoat,
but it is the corporations, NAFTA, the
government, and hate groups like the minutemen
all in an effort to keep us divided and
squabbling amongst each other so that we do not
realize where the real problems stem from..
above. That's one track you can go on with it,
but the main thing is to take the issue out of
the context that the anti-immigrant groups have
boxed it into, and bring up all of these other
points that people probably had not thought, like the term 'alien', etc.
Penny: I've seen it estimated that one in six
people on this planet has emigrated from their
country,including tens of millions in this
country- millions being undocumented. I think
people have to ask themselves: why is that the
case? Is it because people are just trying to
"reap American benefits" or is it because of
something much deeper? As an important example,
what is the relationship between the United States and Mexico?
Cynthia:I think you have to tell the truth, and
you can't be afraid to challenge people. The
truth is that immigrants are forced to come here
in order to survive, because they cannot possibly
earn a living in their own countries. And the
truth is that the United States is an imperialist
country that dominates the economies of many of
the countries in the world, and in particular
Latin America. Just to shed a little light on
this: the top 3 sources of Mexico's income are
earnings that immigrants send back home, tourism
(principally from U.S. tourists) and income from
maquiladoras on the border. Thus, the fate of its
nearly 300 million people is continually under
the shadow of the U.S. I think that many people
have no idea what kind of conditions drive
immigrants to come here, how many lose their
lives on the way, or what kinds of awful
conditions they live under once they get here.
You have to blow out of the water the lie that
immigrants are a drain on this country--it is
actually literally the other way around. This
economy is based on the exploitation of labor,
and a huge element in that is the exploiting of
immigrants at incredibly low-paid, dangerous,
back-breaking, and insecure jobs. Exploitation is
not just some word. The Revolution newspaper
(when it was still called the Revolutionary
Worker-a journal of the RCP) did a feature in
2003 on immigrants who wake up at 2 or 3 in the
morning to work 11 hours in the fields; one of
these workers had been in this country for more
than 30 years and had nothing more to show for it
than the day he arrived. This country is going
through tremendous economic changes, where the
"social compact" -- things like Social Security,
health benefits, pensions, etc--is being eroded
and where the cost of living is growing much,
much faster than wages are. And there's a lot of
trying to blame this on immigrants and pitting
different groups against each other. But to paint
this as the result of immigration is to obscure
the fact that the same forces behind this ever
"leaner and meaner" capitalism that is squeezing
many U.S. citizens are the exact same forces
relentlessly exploiting immigrants.
Ron:In my experience it isn't always just
white-skinned US residents that think illegal
immigration is a problem. While this reality is
testimony to the strength of the media propaganda
machine, it presents a situation for those
organizing against anti-immigrant groups and
legislation. How do you address this?
Sabah: Like I said earlier, regardless of
skin-color it is their agenda which is racist,
and a majority of non-white people understand
that. There are a few, like Rosanno Pulido, who
is the head of the Illinois chapter, which
presents an odd situation, but just because
someone is brown does not mean that they
automatically wish the best for their people, or
understand what is good for their people. She
calls herself an American and proclaims that she
is working for what is good for America her skin
color has nothing to do with anything, but to
confuse us. And I would not be surprised if she
wasn't chosen exactly to do that.
Cynthia: Again, you have to start with the truth.
This is a country that forces many immigrants to
come here and then exploits them viciously when
they do. Just because some immigrants are able to
"make it" and the vast majority are not, that
doesn't change the nature of this system and what
it does to people, any more than a few wealthy
Black conservatives changes the fact that Black
people are oppressed in this country. And just
because groups like the Minutemen use brown
faces, like Rosana Pulido, that doesn't change
the fact that their agenda is racist, pure and
simple, and very, very thinly veiled. The
Minutemen employ rhetoric very similar to what
was used in Nazi Germany against the Jews:
speeches by Chris Simcox or the Minutemen's own
blogs are full of allusions to the idea that the
"cultural fabric of America" (a phrase they would
use, not I) is threatened by the arrival of
immigrants with a different cultural background
than the dominant white culture. They equate
immigrants with terrorists ( a sign at a recent
Minutemen rally read: "Mexican Border = Drugs,
Gangs, Al Qaeda.") There are sections of the
rulers and prominent figures in this country who
are promoting and fighting for a whole
anti-immigrant program. From CNN's Lou Dobbs and
his constant CNN stories of the immigrant
"invasion", to Samuel Huntington's white supremacy with a Harvard pedigree.
I think that once you get clear on the actual
nature of these anti-immigrant movements, then
from that basis you can confront people, of all
nationalities: why would you be behind this?
Why is it acceptable for immigrants to die from
dehydration on the border, or to freeze in the
winter? Why is it acceptable for families to be
ripped apart families by deportation? Why is
forced detention in prison camps acceptable for
someone trying to keep their family from
starving? Why is it acceptable for undocumented
immigrants to live in constant fear, for their
families to be at constant risk of being torn
apart because of the legal status of one member?
Why are these forced roundups of Arabs and Muslim
and South Asian immigrants, this profiling and
criminalizing of entire peoples, something that
anyone can live with? What human being with a
conscience would support a bill like HR 4437,
that legally requires immigrants to suffer and
die by criminalizing anyone who helps them? And
if things like all this are allowed to go down,
what more horrors will come next?
Penny: I have seen a lot of people, even very
progressive people, who have a really negative
view of immigration- especially undocumented
immigration. But where I see a lot of that coming
from is that people are suffering, including in
this country- even middle class people are being
hit very hard economically right now, and this is
especially true in the most oppressed and
exploited parts of this country, like in urban
areas where there's places that half of the
population (this is especially in ghettoized
black neighborhoods) will never see employment
any time in their lives. That kind of statistic
is just staggering when you think about it, and
then in that climate you have the media and
politicians and everything telling you that it's
the immigrants that are the problem- they're
"draining all our resources" and stuff like that,
then you can start to see why people start
turning on immigrants, on each other. For
example, I heard recently that the Minutemen are
organizing in Watts, in South Central L.A. But
really people need to get above that, to look at
the big picture of how all this is connected- for
example, why have millions of people uprooted
their lives, left their homes and often their
families, everything they've ever known, and
risked their lives through the conditions of
travel across the border, including the
vigilantes patrolling with guns, and come to this
country where they're forced to live in fear
every second of their existence, and take the
absolute bottom level of jobs in this country, earning basically nothing?
Ultimately, it's the same reason as why whole
sections of the population in Watts are forced
into the kind of conditions where they make money
illegally and join gangs and all that. It's
because of capitalism, it's because a whole
group, specifically a whole class of people at
the top owns everything and earns wealth at the
expense of everyone else. It's because across the
planet, the way of organizing society is driven
by profit and accumulation, rather than meeting
peoples' needs. And these days, with heightened
globalization and the days of leaner, meaner
capitalist exploitation, including trade
agreements like NAFTA, billions of people across
the planet are having their lives turned upside
down, and forced to migrate and work in
sweatshops or be bought and sold as sexual
slaves, and face other unimaginable conditions of
life. That's why there's a huge up swell in the
level of immigration. But it's not "illegal
immigration" that's the problem- it's capitalism,
and I don't think we'll solve any of the problems
we're talking about until we have a different way
of organizing society, where what's guiding is
the interests of the people at the bottom.
Ron:The ("revised") PATRIOT Act was passed while
I was composing these questions. I have to admit
that this was no surprise. How do you see that
repressive legislation fitting in with other
pieces of legislation like HB 4437?
Penny: I think the whole climate of attacks on
immigrants holds a strong relationship to what
the Democrats and the Republicans are calling the
"War on Terror." Really, this is an open-ended
war on the world that even Dick Cheney has said
could last "a generation or more." Right now, the
U.S. imperialists have both the perceived need as
well as the unique opportunity to really change
the face of the planet as we've known it (as
horrible as it's been and already is.) I think
their ambitions are truly world-historic in a
horrifying sense, where they envision bringing
into being a planet where the U.S. has
obliterated even the potential for any other
imperialist country to rise to the point where
economically, politically, or (importantly)
militarily, they could offer any sort of a
challenge to the sole-superpower status of the
United States. I think we're only seeing the very
beginning of this with Afghanistan and Iraq-
where the Bush Administration has identified a
strategically very important region if you're
going to run the planet, and just bombed the shit
out of these countries; and is attempting to
completely reshape the whole way the region, and
these countries within that, are formed, in the
interests of American empire. (And I think we're
also seeing very important possibilities for this
to get very out of hand for the imperialists,
including the current situation in Iraq, as well
as where millions of people, in this country and
around the world, stood up in mass opposition to
the invasion well before it even began- something quite unprecedented.)
And I think the imperialists have relatively
agreed on the need and possibility to go forward
with that agenda of unending war and re-shaping
of the world, and then there's a relationship
between that and what's going on in the
Fatherland (err, "homeland.") Millions don't (and
won't) want to go along with this open-ended war,
what Condoleeza Rice and others like to call
"democratization." So there's both a broad
culture of fear and intolerance that's being
whipped up by different sections of the rulers
and their representatives, as well as a whole
clampdown on dissent and clampdowns on sections
of the population that could potentially pose a
real opposition to this program. As the U.S. is
attempting to re-shape the Middle East (perhaps
we might call this "phase one" of the
non-existent "War on Terror") the Bush
Administration sees a possibility, and maybe some
need to clamp down and terrify the
Middle-Eastern, Muslim, and Arab people in this
country, through measures legitimized by the
Patriot Act. (And obviously, as the votes have
shown, the Democrats either just overwhelmingly
agree with this, or capitulate to it.) Similar
with those who exercise critical thinking or
dissent on any or all of this. And in Chicago,
just last week, we saw a huge potential for
immigrants, especially Latino, to stand up and
take independent political action opposing the
direction things are going, to break out of the
confines being set by the people at the top, when
hundreds of thousands took to the streets to
oppose House Bill 4437, the Minutemen, and
attacks on immigrants' rights. Well that's a huge
Achilles' heel for U.S. imperialism, here in the
Fatherland, and I think that's at least a basic
part of why we're seeing all this horrible legislation come down.
Sabah: The Patriot Act is definitely in line with
a repressive bill like HR4437. It is the
government slowly chipping away at our rights and
hiding it in legislation that is outwardly their to make us more secure.
Cynthia: Like some of my other answers, it's
tough to summarize in a short space what is
actually a very complex phenomenon. But speaking
for myself, I think that you have to interpret
laws like the PATRIOT Act as 1930s pre-Nazi
Germany laws. Laws that flatten the opposition,
that deem even mild opposition as a security
threat and that aim to crush any kind of
fundamental questioning of the system or anyone
fighting for a radical or revolutionary alternative.
I think that one aspect of laws like this is that
since 9/11, there's a section of the ruling class
that is really trying to expand the reach of U.S.
empire around the world, and keep any other force
from growing strong enough to rival them.
Invading Iraq, plans on invading Iran, declaring
the right to peremptorily strike against any
country the U.S. deems a threat, holding an
economic stranglehold through sanctions and
approving or withdrawing loans--the U.S. has
really taken a huge leap in these last few years,
acting on plans that in many cases were drawn up
years before 9/11. And in particular, from the
perspective of those in the ruling class who are
carrying this stuff out, immigrants who are from
that country or that region of the world, who
tend to still have ties and stay in touch with
developments from and still feel a connection to
that country (especially if the U.S' actions were
responsible for them having to immigrate here in
the first place) -- they see those people as an
Achilles heel, as a potential threat. Laws like
the PATRIOT Act are the rulers making their
position clear: we're going to carry out these
invasions and we're going to devastate and occupy
whatever country we want, wherever we want, for
the reasons we choose--and we will not tolerate,
by any means, any kind of opposition. I think HR
4437 would pave the way for even more vicious
exploitation of immigrants, by driving millions
of them into the shadows where they can be
treated ruthlessly, with complete impunity. And
it would also force everyone else to go along
with all of this. And groups like the Minutemen
are the semi-official enforcers of all of
this--they are like the Hitlerjugend that came
out in force to attack anyone who helped the Jews in Germany.
Ron:I read in the press release that one of the
arrestees is a Muslim woman. Are Muslims being
specifically targeted in the new legislation? If
so, how? Having lived in Muslim countries as a
youngster, I see the similarities between
so-called Judeo-Christian culture and Muslim
culture being much greater than the differences,
but most people in the US tend to see the
differences more. Consequently, their fear of the
other tends to overcome their rational sense,
especially in today's climate where that fear is
whipped up by reactionary religious and political
leaders. More importantly, how does one get US
residents to move beyond their fear of the Muslim religion and culture?
Sabah: I don't know if Muslims are being
specifically targeted with this new bill, I know
the target seems to be Mexicans, but it is
certainly going to be used on Muslim and Arab
immigrants as well, and Mexicans are not the only
undocumented in the U.S, there are all sorts of
other immigrants that will be effected too. I
think the first attack after 9/11 was on Muslim
and Arabs with the Patriot Act. Knowledge is
essential to move US residents beyond their fear
of Islam. The media portrays Muslims negatively
and the only way to counter this is to teach
people about Muslims and take away this
xenophobia. Muslims are just like other people.
You are right that there are much more
similarities between the three Abrahamic faiths
then people know, and this is what we should try to inform people about.
I am a Muslim woman, and I don't think it is a
coincidence that I was violated the most by the
cops, in that they targeted me for my scarf,
which is evident by the fact that my arresting
officer was so focused on it that she took it off
my head while angrily saying, "take that thing
off your head". We've seen the Minutemen express
racism and hatred towards Muslims as well,
especially in their forums and blogs. I think it
is definitely connected, immigrants are under
attack, Muslims and Arabs are under attack, and
those that stand up in opposition to these
injustices are under attack. But the solution is
what they fear most, for us to unite in
solidarity with each other, because although we
are different communities, we are all being
targeted by the same source, and their goal is to
divide and conquer. The AMM5 is a very diverse
group, and we take pride in that, I hope that we
can be a symbol of solidarity, and bring many
different groups together around our cause, because it is all of our cause.
Cynthia: I think that the blame for this fear and
ignorance lies not principally on people living
in the U.S. but in those in power, and that a
good part of the solution lies in getting people
broadly to understand that they've been lied to
and manipulated. I think that, for those who are
motivated by a fear of "terrorism" or a
generalized fear for their own safety, and so are
willing to go along with attacks on immigrants in
the name of keeping them safe, you have to
actually challenge people with some doses of
reality for a second. Can a government that left
thousands of its own citizens to die in New
Orleans really claim to be providing "safety" for
anyone? And you have to ask people if they're
willing to go along with anything-- mass
deportations, imprisonment, torture, the casting
of millions of human beings into the shadows--for
their "safety". Because to say that, to say
"whatever you do, whoever you hurt, as long as
I'm safe", is really a bargain with the devil,
that I think lots of people in their hearts would
not be willing to make. And even if you do make a
bargain with the devil thinking he's going to
protect you, you have to realize it's not going
to work. I think that people should really
compare that "go along with anything in the name
of my safety" with a statement by Craig Murray,
who used to be a UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, at
the International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes
Against Humanity by the Bush Administration: "
... this administration has introduced a
dehumanization of our Muslim brothers and sisters
which means that anything done to them doesn't
count. And that is a step along the road to the
ultimate evil. And that, ladies and gentleman, is
I believe where we areWhich is just to say I
don't believe it works, but even if it did work,
I would personally rather die than have anyone tortured to save my life."
Ron:One more question. While writing that last
question, I realized that it is not the religions
of any culture that have necessarily created
tolerance. Indeed, it is much more likely that it
is the rationalist elements. What do you think?
Penny:I might go ahead and do some exposure,
specifically on "tolerance" of religions- bring
in the Christian fascist morality drawn from the
literal interpretation of the bible. The
connection between that and Islamic
fundamentalist, rooted in the underlying material
conditions: collapse of Soviet Union,
turbo-capitalism. The need for a different
morality based on the critical examination of
reality and the desire/potential to change that
for the better for all of humanity.
Sabah: Well I'm not sure, if you look at
religious texts they often preach tolerance,
understanding and forgiveness, and least I know
this is the case for Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam. I think the question should be addressed
the other way around. It is not religions that
have created intolerance it is people who seek
power and divisions who have created intolerance.
Cynthia:That's a pretty complex question and I
think it would be hard for me to give an answer
justice in the amount of time I've got for these
questions ... it's not that I don't have any
opinions -- as an atheist, I do -- but I don't
want to give a partial or inadequate answer, so
I'll pass on this question for now.
Ron: Back to the trial. What happens next? How
can people contact you and support you?
Cynthia: Our trial is currently set for April 25,
but we are fighting for the case to be dropped
before it ever gets to that point. People should
spread the word really broadly about this case.
Organizations should sign on to support us and
build for our case. We really need thousands of
dollars in donations for legal expenses --the
huge expense of going to trial has always been a
major part of how the state attempts to punish
and crush opposition. People should send
thousands of letters to the state's attorney,
asking that the case be dismissed. And if it
isn't dismissed, they should come out to the
courthouse on April 25 and rally and demand "No
Jail Time for the Anti-Minutemen 5!" We have a
web site:
<mailto:antiminutemen5.tk>antiminutemen5.tk, and
a blog:
<http://www.antiminutemen5.blogspot.com/>antiminutemen5.blogspot.com,
and an email address:
<mailto:antiminutemen5 at yahoo.com>antiminutemen5 at yahoo.com.
Well, I think first of all, people need to be
armed with the understanding that fighting
against these charges is a key part of the fight
against all these attacks on immigrants and the
whole direction society is being taken. We've
been telling people: If you want to oppose groups
like the Minutemen, if you don't want to live in
a society where you have thug shock troops
showing up at your door if you help "illegal"
people, then you have to defend those people that
are getting attacked and arrested for opposing
this. With these charges and their determination
to jail us, the state is trying to make a very
strong statement: To people who stand up for
immigrants' rights: "Don't even think about
opposing the Minutemen.". And think twice before protesting at all."
And, to immigrants: "You have no friends. No one
will help you. No one will defend you." This
needs to really get turned around completely on
them! It should become an exposure of the
Minutemen and what they represent, and I really
hope the battle to defeat these charges is part
of strengthening the whole opposition to these attacks on immigrants overall.
Penny: We go to trial April 25th. The state has
shown in a number of hearings that they are
serious about jail time for trumped-up charges on
protestors acting peacefully and symbolically.
And something we're learning is that people who
protest the Minutemen are being attacked across
the country: in Vermont, the head of this
vigilante group labeled peaceful demonstrators
"domestic terrorists" and this got picked up by
mainstream media, and in California one of the
Minutemen drove a car through a picket line,
knocking people down, and nothing was done for
over half an hour (and eventually anti-Minutemen
protestors were arrested and given felony
charges.) So we see our case, and rallying to the
defense of the Anti-Minutemen 5 as a crucial way
to stand up in opposition to the Minutemen. And
on that basis, we're finding lots of support but
we still need to raise upwards of $10,000 in
legal fees (address for donations below) and need
to have the real deal on the Minutemen much more
broadly understood, including our case. We also
need letters of support and demands that the
charges be dismissed sent to the judge and
state's attorney right away (see below).
And people can contact us through our website:
<http://www.antiminutemen5.tk/>www.antiminutemen5.tk.
Beyond that, I think the resistance to these
vigilantes, as well as attacks on immigrants
generally, and ultimately resistance to the whole
way the Bush Administration is remaking the
entire planet in a fascist direction, needs to be
raised to a whole other level very quickly in
this country. People need to check out the call
to Drive Out the Bush Regime from World Can't
Wait, which takes on the whole Bush program- I
think it's the only vehicle in this country that
can actually change the whole disastrous course
these people are setting us on- as the call
concludes, "The future is unwritten. Which one we get is up to us."
Sabah: Our trial is set for April 25th. We really
need support as far as legal funds go and
letters. I really would like to make a call out
for people to send letters asking that the
charges be dropped to Dick Divine the States
Attorney, as we believe this will really help our
case. Thank you for all your effort, Ron. We
really appreciate this. Sorry if we took long
getting back to you. Its been crazy over here. Peace.
Send letters now- they need thousands- to the
State's Attorney, asking that the case be immediately dismissed:
Richard A. Devine
Cook County State's Attorney
500 Richard J. Daley Center
Chicago, IL 60602
Funds are needed very urgently; they need to
raise upwards of $10,000 in legal expenses in a
few weeks.Send contributions and make checks out to:
Law Office of Jim Fennerty
36 South Wabash, Suite 1310
Chicago, IL 60603 Attn: anti-MM5
Ron Jacobs is author of
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859841678/counterpunchmaga>The
Way the Wind Blew: a history of the Weather
Underground, which is just republished by Verso.
Jacobs' essay on Big Bill Broonzy is featured in
CounterPunch's new collection on music, art and
sex,
<http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/CounterPunch/CP_Books.html>Serpents
in the Garden. He can be reached at:
<mailto:rjacobs3625 at charter.net>rjacobs3625 at charter.net
The Freedom Archives
522 Valencia Street
San Francisco, CA 94110
(415) 863-9977
www.freedomarchives.org
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